Slightly OT: Other low-magic settings

[soudhadies]

I am curious, however, what the 1 wizard for 125 scions is based on?

Actually I see that it wasn't altogether acurate math (I got confused when transfering some numbers from my email).

I will admit that it was based on the 3.0 DMG, but I'm pretty sure that it wasn't changed. I used the methods of determining the number of individuals in a class in a city.

Here was my original calculation: Max level 10, 1 10th, 2 8th, 4 6th, 8 4th, 16 2nd, 32 1st = 63 total wiz and sorcerors together = 126. 126 /25,000 = 0.504% which would actually be 1 wizard/sorceror for about every 200 people.

However, rereading the section of the DMG tells me that I went about it wrong. I double the number every time I halve the level (not when I go down two levels). The maximum possible level of wizard in a metropolis is 1d4+6 = 10, that means there is one 10th level, 2 5th level, 4 3rd level, and 8 1st level. The total then, is 15 wizards. Total maximal Wizard and Sorceror population is 30. Minimum population for the Metropolis (I used it because it provides the largest sample of people) is 25,000 people. 30 / 25,000 = 0.12%. This means 12 per 10,000 or one for every 833-1/3 people.

[Don E]

Originally posted by Bearcat@Jul 12 2004, 07:33 PM
I took the maximum possible population of Wiz/Sorcs in a metropolis of 25,000 and calculated them to be roughly 0.5% of the population. That would be roughly one wizard for every 125 blooded individuals. However, since there is one one blooded individual for every thousand unblooded individuals, you end up with one wizard for every 125,000 people. So a realm like Medoere, for example, with a population of roughly 21,000 people would be lucky to have even one true caster (and having a court realm wizard is a coup on their part).

If 0.5% of all blooded people are wizads, shouldn't that be one out of 200 instead?
[Edit: Sorry Bearcat, I wrote that reply at the same time as you ]

Personally I have a problem with the whole 0.1% 'rule'. If one assumes medoere have 21,00 inhabitants there is hardly enough blooded individuals to make up much of a noble social class. 21 scions would harldy make up 2 families, which I find too low both from a campaign perspecitve and on the issue of actual marriage politics etc. I know this is a sore point reagarding BR, but that's just my 2 cp.

Slightly realted, what is the total number of people in Anuire if one add up the averge population from all the provinces? I believe somebody have done this already for one or more PBeMs.

[soudhadies]

A quick runthrough of RoE with a calculator comes up with about 1.8-1.9 million people (I noticed a couiple of times that I was careless, but didn't want to start over). This includes the elven, dwarven and awnsheghlien domains.

[Don E]

Originally posted by Bearcat@Jul 13 2004, 05:35 AM
A quick runthrough of RoE with a calculator comes up with about 1.8-1.9 million people (I noticed a couiple of times that I was careless, but didn't want to start over). This includes the elven, dwarven and awnsheghlien domains.

So using the ballpark figure of 1.5 million humans in Anuire, we get 1,500 blooded individuals. 12 out of 10,000 would then give us about 2 true wizards in Anuire. Even if one adjust this number up relative to the Vos and Rjurik one still get a very low number. Compared to the writeup of the College of Sorcery in BoM I find a big discrepancy. (I'm not saying this would be a bad thing, as I personally find the CoS to imply far more true wizards than the rest of the campaign material does.)

The solution I would use is to drop the 200 true wizards 'rule', and rather bump the number up. I have based this on the realtive gain one would get for training wizards, and on the need for a larger wizard population to actually sustain the number of wizards we know from the published material (there have to be some lower level wizards around to take up the reins as the more famous ones die).

[epicsoul]

Have to disagree still. By quick glance, there is about 3 to 4 dozen source holding spellcasters throughout Cerilia. That leaves about 160 or so non-source holders, if you go by the 200 rule. And amongst those, most would be trying to get to be a source holder. BUT, for one thing:

Anyone realize how EXPENSIVE it is to be a wizard? Sorcerors are way favoured, but let's ignore them for a moment (BR was not a campaign built with 'em in mind)
Spell research, even of those 1st level spells, is costly! And while researching, you can't work. And you still have to make living expenses.

Putting a wizard through school, then trying to get them up to any kind of power level of use is beyond the means of many KINGDOMS. It is a major, long term investment that may never pay off. And, if you actually want them to become even more useful by becoming a source holder, you are going to have to lend them RPs, because, let's face it, none of the wizards around suffer young upstarts easily. The established wizard is going to squish the guy down who has the one level 1 source. So, now you have to keep pumping GB and RP into a wizard that still might not make it. Or, let's say you want a battle wizard... in strict game terms, fact is, you have now created a BIG target. As the bad guy, I am going to be flinging lots of thieves with sneak attacks out to take out that low hp wizard. In terms of the campaign: I am sending assasins to take out your big cannon before war starts.

Why can't there be a lot of MAGICIANS around, instead? Take the case of Rogr Aglondier: a human magician, commoner, who became a true wizard once the old Aglondiers died off. Lesser magic, sure. But, when wizards die (at least, human ones), perhaps they choose non-blooded apprentices as heirs.

And, if anyone hasn't noticed, a goodly percentage of wizards seem to have long life bloodpower, or are elven... they have been in power for a good length of time. Just off the top of my head: the Gorgon, Rhuobhe, Aelies, Peak Mage (the Drake), probably the Eyeless One, the Dhoesones, Isaelie... and then the family lines: the Aglondiers, the Khoriens, and (kinda) The Three Brother Mages. And that is just Anuire, let alone the rest. So, there isn't a lot of need for new mages to sustain the amount of wizards.

Book of Magecraft did a disservice, but not a big one; why wouldn't LOTS of the people at the CoS be magicians, not true wizards? And, as a further note, just going by player's secrets books, many lesser noble families DON'T have bloodlines.

IMO, it IS a coup to have a court wizard that happens to be a true wizard, let alone a source holder. These are powers, some of them OLD powers. Most realms lack them, I figure.

[Don E]

Originally posted by epicsoul@Jul 13 2004, 08:55 PM
Why can't there be a lot of MAGICIANS around, instead? Take the case of Rogr Aglondier: a human magician, commoner, who became a true wizard once the old Aglondiers died off. Lesser magic, sure. But, when wizards die (at least, human ones), perhaps they choose non-blooded apprentices as heirs.

Which make for an interesting situation in itself. Either the writers of BR made a huge blunder in giving Aglondier a non-blooded heir, or they assumed Aglondier made one himself. The latter is hardly a good solution, as wizards are rarely known for being that stupid. When Rogr is to take over Ilien looses their single advantage that have kept then independent for so long, true magic and, hence, realm magic. It is only a matter of outlasting Moeran, and Roesone or Diemed will be hammering on the doors rather quickly.

Book of Magecraft did a disservice, but not a big one; why wouldn't LOTS of the people at the CoS be magicians, not true wizards? And, as a further note, just going by player's secrets books, many lesser noble families DON'T have bloodlines.

Which I think is another problematic issue. If one allows for a nonblooded nobles one are faced with two possibilites. Either they would have intermarried with blooded families a long time ago and gained bloodlines, although diluted, themselves. Otherwise one have a entirely different social strata which shouldn't be considered noble at all. In a world where nobility is quantifiable through a measure of how strong a bloodline is I find it hard to believe there would exist such an institution. The true nobility might grant titles and posts to nonblooded people, but they would hardly be considered part of the nobility themselves.

[soudhadies]

Which make for an interesting situation in itself. Either the writers of BR made a huge blunder in giving Aglondier a non-blooded heir, or they assumed Aglondier made one himself. The latter is hardly a good solution, as wizards are rarely known for being that stupid. When Rogr is to take over Ilien looses their single advantage that have kept then independent for so long, true magic and, hence, realm magic. It is only a matter of outlasting Moeran, and Roesone or Diemed will be hammering on the doors rather quickly.

Rogr Aglondier gained the ability to cast true and realm magic when he was invested with the Aglondier bloodline. I think Moeran Aglondier made a very good decision in investing a spellcaster heir, even though originally unblooded, because that means that precisely because it guaranteed Iliens continued independence through realm magic.

Which I think is another problematic issue. If one allows for a nonblooded nobles one are faced with two possibilites. Either they would have intermarried with blooded families a long time ago and gained bloodlines, although diluted, themselves. Otherwise one have a entirely different social strata which shouldn't be considered noble at all. In a world where nobility is quantifiable through a measure of how strong a bloodline is I find it hard to believe there would exist such an institution. The true nobility might grant titles and posts to nonblooded people, but they would hardly be considered part of the nobility themselves.

As long as the title, post and lands are heriditary, the non-blooded person is functionally a noble. Certainly blooded nobles wouldn't in normal circumstances consider marrying into that noble family in normal circumstances, but that doesn't mean they aren't noble.

Take Khinasi for example: We have the tamounzada high nobility, where you'll find the realm's strongest bloodlines, and the ajazada, or minor nobility (named families), who are made up mostly of unblooded families with some minor lines making up the most famous and prosperous members of the class.

Even in Anuire, you can divide major landholders from minor landholders based on feudalism. The realm regent has major vassals (typically one family per province), who will in turn alott land to smaller vassals, who will have in turn smaller vassals down to the level of knights who will generally be allotted a single manor (typically a few hundred acres in size). Major landholders (those with many, many manors) will typically come from blooded families (although this isn't guaranteed, as great services to the realm may result in major land grants), while the lower levels of the gentry will generally not be blooded.

[Ksaturn]

(off topic - removed)

[Don E]

Originally posted by Bearcat@Jul 14 2004, 06:03 AM
Rogr Aglondier gained the ability to cast true and realm magic when he was invested with the Aglondier bloodline. I think Moeran Aglondier made a very good decision in investing a spellcaster heir, even though originally unblooded, because that means that precisely because it guaranteed Iliens continued independence through realm magic.

IMO the Book of Magecraft is quite clear on this subject. If Rogr was unblooded he must have trained as a magician while the apprentice of Moeran. Listing him as a wizard in the Player's Secrets of Ilien not only contradicts BoM, but one of the most fundamental issues reagarding magic users in BR. BoM is also quite clear on the topic that when one has started to train as a magician one has basically given up on controlling sources. One can be a regent, but not cast realm spells.

I agree that it would be a good idea to designate a spellcasting heir, more or less the only reasonable course of action as I see it. The problem is that a non-blooded magician cannot control sources even if he gains a bloodline later.

As an aside I can mention that I have played with people who have allowed to swap magician levels for wizard levels at an XP loss, but I hardly think this is a suitable solution for the BRCS. Especially if the new magician gain other class abilities this would cause some trouble.

[Raesene Andu]

Of course, realm spells are very different from standard magic. A magician who gains a bloodline can still learn and cast realm spells without becoming a wizard as it is a completely new branch of magic. So Rogr would still need to meet all the requirements of each realm spell and would have to research it as a wizard would, but he is not prevented from learning the spells because he is a magician.