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  1. #1
    Gary V. Foss
    Guest

    Magic items in BR

    Magic items are relatively scarce in the Cerilia. Now, I'm not
    complaining. I rather like the lack of magic items. It appeals to me
    not only as an opportunity for better role-playing and gaming skill, but
    as a contrast to the other settings out there that seem to have magic
    items crawling out of the woodwork. But I've been thinking that the
    rationalization for the lack of magic items is a little faulty.
    Generally, the relatively small number of wizards is the explanation for
    the lack of magic, but I'm not so sure this holds up. Here's my
    reasoning:

    1. Priests. There's still plenty of priests running around on
    Cerilia. In fact, I get the feeling that there are more of them in BR
    than in other campaign worlds. I could be wrong about this. I just get
    that feeling from the amount of temples and the influence that priests
    have as regents that makes them seem more prolific to me. Sure, it
    takes priests longer to create a magic item (unless they are using realm
    magic (see #3)) but there should be just as many priestly created magic
    items laying around as in any other setting. In fact, maybe a little
    more. Given the lack of mages, wouldn't priests stand in to compensate
    a bit by spending more of their time creating these incredibly valuable
    and sought after magic items?

    2. Elves and dwarves. Racially created magic items seem just as rare on
    Cerilia as human created ones, which doesn't really make much sense to
    me. Sure, there are fewer demi-humans lounging about. (Or are there?
    Elves and dwarves are almost always a minority of the population in D&D
    settings. I don't have any population numbers lying around, but I don't
    think there are really THAT many fewer on Cerilia than elsewhere.)
    These races can crank out magic items just as well as their counterparts
    in other settings, so there should be just as many +1 arrows and bows,
    boots and cloaks of elvenkind, etc. lying around as anyplace else. In
    fact, maybe a little more. Again, given the lack of human mages,
    wouldn't elven mages (who should represent a more "normal" percentage of
    their population as they are not required to be blooded in order to
    become mages, plus they have an unlimited maximum level in BR) kick in
    and create a few more magic items? Wouldn't dwarven smiths turn out
    more magical weapons and armor from their forges for the same reason?

    3. Realm magic. Realm magic is a really good way to create magic
    items. If a mage has access to a huge amount of magical power, why
    can't they channel that energy into the creation of magic items in a way
    that characters from other settings are unable to? If I recall from my
    copy of the BoP (do you believe I STILL don't have my copy of the BoM
    yet?) there are means of doing this. A character running around with
    access to a Temple 7 or Source 5 should be able to create magic items
    much more effectively than a character in another setting without such
    access. I would think they would create more items.

    4. Magicians. This is kind of a side note here. What sparked this
    message was the way I see the magician class being under exploited in
    the BR setting. It is more difficult to become a magician rather than a
    wizard, but I don't think that would mean there would be so few of
    them. It seems like every BR product has a wizard or two in it, but
    relatively few have a magician. (There's no need to list them, I know
    they are out there, I'm just saying I don't see nearly as many of them
    as I would think should appear.) There are a few illusionist spells
    that are permanent. Permanent Illusion and Simulacrum come to mind.
    Shouldn't there be more of these in the setting?

    - -Gary

  2. #2
    Pieter A de Jong
    Guest

    Magic items in BR

    At 10:13 AM 6/2/98 -0700, Gary V. Foss wrote:
    >Magic items are relatively scarce in the Cerilia. Now, I'm not
    >complaining. I rather like the lack of magic items. It appeals to me
    >not only as an opportunity for better role-playing and gaming skill, but
    >as a contrast to the other settings out there that seem to have magic
    >items crawling out of the woodwork. But I've been thinking that the
    >rationalization for the lack of magic items is a little faulty.
    >Generally, the relatively small number of wizards is the explanation for
    >the lack of magic, but I'm not so sure this holds up. Here's my
    >reasoning:
    >
    You know, this business of Cerilia being relatively magic/magic item low is
    one of the more inconsistent points of the setting. In the basic boxed set,
    the NPC's presented have relatively powerful magic items. For example,
    guilder Kalien with a short sword +4 and bracers of defense ac4. He's a 4th
    level theif for gods sake. This is not underequipped even for the (best)
    Forgotten Realms. However, in many places the setting is described as low
    magic (with immortal elves, realm magic, and battle magic).


    >1. Priests. There's still plenty of priests running around on
    >Cerilia. In fact, I get the feeling that there are more of them in BR
    >than in other campaign worlds. I could be wrong about this. I just get
    >that feeling from the amount of temples and the influence that priests
    >have as regents that makes them seem more prolific to me. Sure, it
    >takes priests longer to create a magic item (unless they are using realm
    >magic (see #3)) but there should be just as many priestly created magic
    >items laying around as in any other setting. In fact, maybe a little
    >more. Given the lack of mages, wouldn't priests stand in to compensate
    >a bit by spending more of their time creating these incredibly valuable
    >and sought after magic items?
    >
    Yes, priests create magic items, but only at the discretion of the gods. I
    don't have the books with me, but I can't recall a god of crafting/making
    things. The pantheon seems much more devoted to moral/mental concepts than
    physical creation.

    >2. Elves and dwarves. Racially created magic items seem just as rare on
    >Cerilia as human created ones, which doesn't really make much sense to
    >me. Sure, there are fewer demi-humans lounging about. (Or are there?
    >Elves and dwarves are almost always a minority of the population in D&D
    >settings. I don't have any population numbers lying around, but I don't
    >think there are really THAT many fewer on Cerilia than elsewhere.)
    >These races can crank out magic items just as well as their counterparts
    >in other settings, so there should be just as many +1 arrows and bows,
    >boots and cloaks of elvenkind, etc. lying around as anyplace else. In
    >fact, maybe a little more. Again, given the lack of human mages,
    >wouldn't elven mages (who should represent a more "normal" percentage of
    >their population as they are not required to be blooded in order to
    >become mages, plus they have an unlimited maximum level in BR) kick in
    >and create a few more magic items? Wouldn't dwarven smiths turn out
    >more magical weapons and armor from their forges for the same reason?
    >
    This is a big one. In particular, elves are immortal. This means that upon
    going from 16th level (minimum level for permanent item creation) to 18th
    level, they can use Wish to make item permanent. Being immortal, they don't
    worry about aging effects, as opposed to the constitution loss from
    permanency. Also, human magic item creation is limited by wizards who reach
    these levels being old, and dying soon. Once an elf reaches this level, he
    just keeps on going. Remember, that basically, the higher level you are the
    harder you get to kill in AD&D.


    >3. Realm magic. Realm magic is a really good way to create magic
    >items. If a mage has access to a huge amount of magical power, why
    >can't they channel that energy into the creation of magic items in a way
    >that characters from other settings are unable to? If I recall from my
    >copy of the BoP (do you believe I STILL don't have my copy of the BoM
    >yet?) there are means of doing this. A character running around with
    >access to a Temple 7 or Source 5 should be able to create magic items
    >much more effectively than a character in another setting without such
    >access. I would think they would create more items.
    >
    The BoM doesn't actually have that much to say on the subject unfortunately,
    but realm magic should have a serious influence on the creation of magic items.


    >4. Magicians. This is kind of a side note here. What sparked this
    >message was the way I see the magician class being under exploited in
    >the BR setting. It is more difficult to become a magician rather than a
    >wizard, but I don't think that would mean there would be so few of
    >them. It seems like every BR product has a wizard or two in it, but
    >relatively few have a magician. (There's no need to list them, I know
    >they are out there, I'm just saying I don't see nearly as many of them
    >as I would think should appear.) There are a few illusionist spells
    >that are permanent. Permanent Illusion and Simulacrum come to mind.
    >Shouldn't there be more of these in the setting?
    >

    Yes, there should be more of the permanent illusion spells used in the
    setting (there are probably large numbers of them used in old elven ruins?).
    But as far as creating magic items, I don't think magicians will have much
    impact as they can access neither Enchant an Item (6th level,
    non-illusion/divination) or permanency (8th level, non-I/D)

    >-Gary
    >
    >************************************************* **************************
    >>'unsubscribe birthright' as the body of the message.
    >

    Pieter A de Jong
    Graduate Mechanical Engineering Student
    University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada

  3. #3
    The Olesen`s
    Guest

    Magic items in BR

    I agree with what you have all been saying.

    BR should not lack magical bows, arrows, cloaks, and long/short swords
    (elven items) or Axes and platemail (Dwarwen items).

    BR should lack Magical Rapiers,Cutlasses, 2hd Swords, Harpoons, Bastard
    and Broad Swords, Claytmores, and all non-plate armor. These are all
    human weapons and armors and why would en elf use his powers to enchant
    an "unnatural weapon of the destructive humans"?


    A little side note: a deck of Many Things is esspecially dangerous in
    BR. Especially "Ruin"(look it up).

    Non-BR:"Oh, boo hoo I lost a little keep and 2 acres!"
    BR: "Ahh, I lost seven provinces, over twenty holdings, and 15 GBs!!!!"

  4. #4
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    Magic items in BR

    >Yes, there should be more of the permanent illusion spells used in the
    >setting (there are probably large numbers of them used in old elven ruins?).
    >But as far as creating magic items, I don't think magicians will have much
    >impact as they can access neither Enchant an Item (6th level,
    >non-illusion/divination) or permanency (8th level, non-I/D)

    Well, following the release of Spells&Magic, these spells belong to the
    "Universal" school, which basically replaces Lesser Divination. Any
    wizardly-magic user has access to universal, regardless of whether s/he is
    an elementalist, an invoker, an alchemist (I think), a magician, a true
    mage, whatever.

  5. #5
    Dragon3125@aol.co
    Guest

    Magic items in BR

    In a message dated 6/2/98 2:02:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
    pad300@mail.usask.ca writes:

  6. #6
    Pieter A de Jong
    Guest

    Magic items in BR

    At 08:45 PM 6/2/98 -0500, Shade wrote:
    >>Yes, there should be more of the permanent illusion spells used in the
    >>setting (there are probably large numbers of them used in old elven ruins?).
    >>But as far as creating magic items, I don't think magicians will have much
    >>impact as they can access neither Enchant an Item (6th level,
    >>non-illusion/divination) or permanency (8th level, non-I/D)
    >
    >Well, following the release of Spells&Magic, these spells belong to the
    >"Universal" school, which basically replaces Lesser Divination. Any
    >wizardly-magic user has access to universal, regardless of whether s/he is
    >an elementalist, an invoker, an alchemist (I think), a magician, a true
    >mage, whatever.

    Actually, I would dispute such a contention from one of my PC's. The idea
    behind magicians is that non-blooded mortal bodies/souls simply cannot
    handle channeling large amounts of mebhaigal. Therefore they are restricted
    from casting spells above 2nd level in schools other than illusion and
    divination (used to be greater divination (above 4th level divination
    spells)). Given that universal is not one of these 2 schools and IIRC
    includes spells such as teleport w/o error, I cannot see magicians having
    unlimited access to such a school. Spells such as teleport w/o error
    require the channeling of far to much mebhaigal.

    Pieter A de Jong
    Graduate Mechanical Engineering Student
    University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada

  7. #7
    darkstar
    Guest

    Magic items in BR

    Shaun Hodgson wrote:


    > So I guess what I'm saying is "Who has time to make a Staff of the
    > Magi, when there are 2 or 3 other wizards just itching to get their
    > hands on my sources?"
    >
    I would have to agree with this. In my pbem game I allow Wizard regents
    to create magical items and so far not one has done so. They have all
    been too busy with other things to spare at least three months to create
    a magical item.


    - --
    Ian Hoskins

    e-Mail: hoss@box.net.au
    Homepage: http://darkstar.cyberserv.com
    ICQ: 2938300

  8. #8
    veryfastperson@juno.com
    Guest

    Magic items in BR

    >Also remember that acording to the most recent update of the rules you
    >only
    >have a 5% chance of losing a point of Constitution for casting
    >Permanency

    i didn't know this. where are these new updates found? i have always been
    under the assumption that the caster WILL lose a point of constitution
    from casting Permenancy. are the new updates in the PHB, DMG, or
    something else?

    Help would be greatly appriciated :)

    Thanks,
    Erik

    P.S. on a side note, not having anything to do with this topic, but does
    anyone know about Gen Con? i mean, i have always wanted to go, but being
    18, and in New York sorta puts a damper on my transportation. but if
    someone knows when, where, and all that stuff, i would love to know.
    Thanks again!

    >************************************************* **************************
    >To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the
    >line
    >'unsubscribe birthright' as the body of the message.
    >

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  9. #9
    Trizt
    Guest

    Magic items in BR

    On 02-Jun-98, Gary V. Foss (GeeMan@linkline.com) wrote about [BIRTHRIGHT] -
    Magic items in BR:

    - ->1. Priests. There's still plenty of priests running around on
    - ->Cerilia. In fact, I get the feeling that there are more of them in BR
    - ->than in other campaign worlds.
    I would say that FR has alot more priests than BR. The amount of priests isn't
    in any way connected to how many magical items they may produce, it's their
    level. I would say that 90% of all priests are level 0 and 9% of them of such
    low levels that they can't create any magical items. The rest may be able to
    create magical items, but then comes the question, do they have time for this,
    as it can take wery long time to make those.

    - ->2. Elves and dwarves. Racially created magic items seem just as rare on
    - ->Cerilia as human created ones, which doesn't really make much sense to
    - ->me.
    There haven't been much information released about the cerilian demihumans,
    who knows wha t they may hide in their treasure vaults, maybe magic
    boomsticks? who know? You have to think that demihumans protects their macigal
    items quite much, as if they fall in the wrong hands it may implay the end for
    them, so they send out parties to recover everything which has been lost (on
    battle fields or by thieft).


    - ->3. Realm magic. Realm magic is a really good way to create magic
    - ->items. If a mage has access to a huge amount of magical power, why
    - ->can't they channel that energy into the creation of magic items in a way
    - ->that characters from other settings are unable to?
    Ususally there is a greater risk creating powerful magical items or using a
    more potent magical source while creating one. The risk of loosing consitution
    while creating a normal permament magical item makes a wizard to think atleast
    twice before trying, what do you think they do if they can risk their own life
    while creating a powerful magical item.

    - ->4. Magicians. This is kind of a side note here. What sparked this
    - ->message was the way I see the magician class being under exploited in
    - ->the BR setting.
    You are right as long as you only look at the PC's, the player can freely
    choose if her character will bee blooded or not and therefore can choose to
    play a wizard. But think about the "population" in Cerilia, it's more common
    that someone has those "ability scores" which are requered to become magician
    than to be blooded and be able to become a wizard.

    If you want to increase the amount of magical items without unbalacing the
    game, then use charged items instead of permanent items. Let say the PC's
    finds a ring of flying with 5 charges, then the players would use it only when
    really needed instead of using it always.

    //Trizt of Ward^RITE

    --------------------
    E-Mail: trizt@iname.com URL: http://www.ukko.dyn.ml.org/~trizt/
    Nick : Trizt IRC: irc.kuai.se:5278 Channel: #Opers
    MUD: callandor.imaginary.com 5317
    --------------------

  10. #10
    The Olesen`s
    Guest

    Magic items in BR

    Erik M Samhammer wrote:
    >
    > >Also remember that acording to the most recent update of the rules you
    > >only
    > >have a 5% chance of losing a point of Constitution for casting
    > >Permanency
    >
    > i didn't know this. where are these new updates found? i have always been
    > under the assumption that the caster WILL lose a point of constitution
    > from casting Permenancy. are the new updates in the PHB, DMG, or
    > something else?
    >
    > Help would be greatly appriciated :)
    >
    > Thanks,
    > Erik

    As far as I knew one would always lose a constitution poit from casting
    permanency EXEPT when using it on magical items (like this it is only 5&
    chance). See Create Magical Item spell (i think).

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