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Thread: Bloodline strength enhancement?
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05-27-1998, 10:15 AM #1tduexx@students.aabc.dGuest
Bloodline strength enhancement?
I feel that it should be possible to raise the bloodline strength (tainted
- -> minor, minor -> major etc) for a character (PC or NPC) but I don't really
have an idea to construct a rule on it.
I have thought about basing it on the Bloodline score, but that seems wrong.
Any ideas on this out there? Or is it a creazy idea altogether?
Thomas Due
tduexx@students.aabc.dk
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05-27-1998, 10:48 AM #2Gary V. FossGuest
Bloodline strength enhancement?
tduexx@students.aabc.dk wrote:
> I feel that it should be possible to raise the bloodline strength (tainted
> -> minor, minor -> major etc) for a character (PC or NPC) but I don't really
> have an idea to construct a rule on it.
>
> I have thought about basing it on the Bloodline score, but that seems wrong.
>
> Any ideas on this out there? Or is it a creazy idea altogether?
Not crazy at all. In fact, this has been a source of a little debate around
here.... Personally, I like the idea of raising the bloodline strength as the
bloodline score goes up. There have been a couple of points of view on the
matter, but as far as I can tell the bloodline strength has very little effect
on anything after character generation, so you might as well allow it if it will
add to your's and your players' enjoyment of the campaign.
They way I handle it is that once a character raises his bloodline score to
something above the maximum possible for his original bloodline strength during
character generation his bloodline strength goes up. That is, the maximum score
of a character with a tainted bloodline at character generation is 4d4=16, so
his bloodline strength goes up to minor when the character's score reaches 17.
Minor (5d6) becomes major ar 31, major (8d6) becomes great at 49, and great
(8d8) becomes "true" at 65.
I put true in italics because of the definition of a true bloodline in the
Rulebook which says that such "bloodlines originate from only one source: the
chosen champion of one of the gods of Deismaar" (20.) The Rulebook also says
that a character "could possibly discover such a heritage later" without giving
any indication of how such a thing would happen, but what the heck? I say if a
character raises his bloodline score go ahead and give him a new bloodline
strength.
- -Gary
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05-27-1998, 11:01 AM #3The Olesen`sGuest
Bloodline strength enhancement?
tduexx@students.aabc.dk wrote:
>
> I feel that it should be possible to raise the bloodline strength (tainted
> -> minor, minor -> major etc) for a character (PC or NPC) but I don't really
> have an idea to construct a rule on it.
>
> I have thought about basing it on the Bloodline score, but that seems wrong.
>
> Any ideas on this out there? Or is it a creazy idea altogether?
>
We had dicussed this earlier and pretty much came up with the idea that
Minor/Major/Great had no real effect on a person's bloodline and was
just a symbol of what kind of bloodline thay came from.
A tained bloodline guy could rule well and kill lots of bad Azari guys
and eventually get his bloodline into the 50s. You might say that his
kid would have a Major bloodline (maybee even great)
At leat thats what I got from everyone, corect me if I am wrong
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05-27-1998, 11:39 AM #4Ryan B. CaveneyGuest
Bloodline strength enhancement?
On Wed, 27 May 1998, Gary V. Foss wrote:
> tduexx@students.aabc.dk wrote:
>
> > I feel that it should be possible to raise the bloodline strength (tainted
> > -> minor, minor -> major etc) for a character (PC or NPC) but I don't really
> > have an idea to construct a rule on it.
>
> Personally, I like the idea of raising the bloodline strength as the
> bloodline score goes up.
So do I.
> as far as I can tell the bloodline strength has very little effect
> on anything after character generation
Extra blood abilities can be gained with bloodline point value
increases, and there presently is a blood ability available only to
certain bloodline strengths (major resistance to magic from Blood Enemies
is available only to those with great or true bloodlines).
> They way I handle it is that once a character raises his bloodline score
> to something above the maximum possible for his original bloodline
> strength during character generation his bloodline strength goes up.
Another method is to match the breakpoints to those provided for
blood ability acquisition (after applying Gary's test): i.e., tainted
goes to minor at 19, minor goes to major at 35, major goes to great at 51
and great goes to true at 81. This method makes upgrading somewhat
harder, and matches certain NPCs better (Avan, for instance, but not
Boeruine; Gary's formula would upgrade both. One could conceivably hunt
through all the published NPCs and make a table...)
> I put true in italics because of the definition of a true bloodline in
> the Rulebook which says that such "bloodlines originate from only one
> source: the chosen champion of one of the gods of Deismaar" (20.) The
> Rulebook also says that a character "could possibly discover such a
> heritage later" without giving any indication of how such a thing would
> happen, but what the heck?
My reasoning exactly. I also believe a bloodline should go down
in grade if it is seriously reduced: I don't care how great your ancestors
may have been, but if recently you have mismanaged things badly enough to
drop from a 60 to a 10, your family no longer deserves to be considered
anything more than a minor bloodline from now on. This has made me
consider toying with the bloodline rollup table (making great 8d4+32, for
example), but then I think I should probably alter the strength category
frequencies in order to maintain the same average bloodline score over the
whole blooded population...
Although perhaps the reverse of my desire is exactly what the
designers had in mind: in a setting where "Divine Right of Kings" is
literally true, emphasis on past glories is especially tempting for
members of families who have fallen very far, such as a hypothetical scion
of a "great" bloodline of strength 8.
- --Ryan
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05-27-1998, 07:27 PM #5Keyplate72@aol.coGuest
Bloodline strength enhancement?
I used to use a a scale to increase bloodstrength
(exe minor to major) based off of the table in the rule
book using blood score.
Now I think that is a major flaw in Birthright.
At least ever since I had a extremely evil PC who
decided ten wives and mistresses giving birth...
l little bloodtheft...
wham...
a few years to great bloodline strength!!
Now I separate strength and score a little more.
Gary V. Foss wrote:
>as far as I can tell the bloodline strength has very little effect
>on anything after character generation.
I see strength based more on heritage due to an ancesters
proximity to the release of the divine essence at Deismaar.
I believe it can only be increased by birth or investure
(bloodtheft).
(exe: to move from minor to major, one must invest
(bloodtheft) in a being of major bloodline.)
Bloodscore, on the other hand, represents power.
Thus its use to figure regency points.
(I know this is a bad way to put it, but it is all that
comes to mind.)
I can be increased by birth, bloodtheft, or a domain action.
How I handle this is by rolling in a fashion similar to the
way described in LoHK in the Ogre adventure.
This gives a chance for a stonger bloodline to overpower
a weaker, just like Azrai bloodline can overtake another,
creating Awnsheiglen (sp).
I do modify this roll giving an all to nothing approach,
therefore bloodlines do not decrease with bloodtheft.
This also limited the number of True and Great bloodlines
in Cerillia (sp). And help me maintain balance, since
it is doubtful any of my PC's will ever bloodtheft the Gorgon.
Just a few thoughts,
Brad Skinner.
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05-28-1998, 12:23 AM #6Gary V. FossGuest
Bloodline strength enhancement?
Keyplate72@aol.com wrote:
> I used to use a a scale to increase bloodstrength
> (exe minor to major) based off of the table in the rule
> book using blood score.
>
> Now I think that is a major flaw in Birthright.
> At least ever since I had a extremely evil PC who
> decided ten wives and mistresses giving birth...
> l little bloodtheft...
> wham...
> a few years to great bloodline strength!!
> Now I separate strength and score a little more.
Well, this is a possibility given the rules of the game. I've often wondered
why the Gorgon didn't do something along those lines, though I think even he
might have trouble with doing it on such a scale.
I'd subject a character that had ten wives and/or mistresses to all the clichés
of marriage and relationships on an exponential level before a single child was
born for him to commit bloodtheft on. Want ten wives? Well, here's ten
mothers-in-law, baby! Ten mistresses? How about ten jealous boyfriends and
irate fathers, not to mention upset wives and rivals the likes of which would
make Hillary Clinton look like a cream puff. I'd have midwives squirreling the
newborns off a la "Willow" in an orchestrated cabal with the rulers enemies
(who would be many given his behavior) until his breeding pogrom turned on him.
Oh, I know a guy brutal enough to commit bloodtheft on his own children would
probably have no problem with axing all these folks, but if you go around
killing people that ruthlessly and do not have a power base the likes of which
would rival the Gorgon, then I think a ruler would be in for a lot of domestic
problems. Most Cerilian rulers just don't have that much control over their
domains. The Gorgon might. But I don't think even he has enough control over
the people in his domain to keep them from hiding his offspring or to keep the
mothers from escaping from time to time. After a few years of such actions he
would have illegitimate children running around like guests on the Jerry
Springer show, all with nasty "kill daddy because he abandoned me/raped
mommy/subjected me to the ravages of an Azrai bloodline" complexes, and I don't
think he would want that much competition.
The way I see the Gorgon doing it, however, is on a much more limited scale. I
mean, he's practically immortal. Why not take a wife once every generation,
have a single child and kill them both? Over the centuries that could amount
to quite a lot of bloodline strength.
> Gary V. Foss wrote:
> >as far as I can tell the bloodline strength has very little effect
> >on anything after character generation.
>
> I see strength based more on heritage due to an ancesters
> proximity to the release of the divine essence at Deismaar.
I think proximity is was it is based on, but I like the idea of it being
something that can be modified and increased along with bloodline score,
despite the fact that it has very little actual effect on play. It just gives
the player a sense of accomplishment, which is nice in a level based game
system. While this might not be true to the rules, the concept of a character
running around with a tainted bloodline strength who has raised his bloodline
score after years of campaigning to 50 just seems wrong to me.
> I believe it can only be increased by birth or investure
> (bloodtheft).
>
> (exe: to move from minor to major, one must invest
> (bloodtheft) in a being of major bloodline.)
>
> Bloodscore, on the other hand, represents power.
> Thus its use to figure regency points.
> (I know this is a bad way to put it, but it is all that
> comes to mind.)
>
> I can be increased by birth, bloodtheft, or a domain action.
>
> How I handle this is by rolling in a fashion similar to the
> way described in LoHK in the Ogre adventure.
> This gives a chance for a stonger bloodline to overpower
> a weaker, just like Azrai bloodline can overtake another,
> creating Awnsheiglen (sp).
>
> I do modify this roll giving an all to nothing approach,
> therefore bloodlines do not decrease with bloodtheft.
>
> This also limited the number of True and Great bloodlines
> in Cerillia (sp). And help me maintain balance, since
> it is doubtful any of my PC's will ever bloodtheft the Gorgon.
It occurs to me that I should mention that this is really an academic
discussion from my point of view. I mean, only a couple of times IMC has a
character raised his bloodline score enough to change his bloodline strength,
and I don't think anybody has raised it twice. Certainly no one has raised
their score high enough to become a "true" bloodline.
Part of the problem for me is the use of the word "true" in describing
bloodline strength. I think the only guys who should have a "true" bloodline
strength are people whose bloodline has been handed down directly from one of
the folks standing at ground zero of Deismaar. Close enough to get god
ectoplasm all over them. Just a tick or two farther away than the guys who
absorbed enough godjuice to become gods themselves.
But there is no word to describe bloodline strength after "great" than "true"
in the rules. Maybe I should make one up in the unlikely event it ever happens
IMC. "Grand" or "high." I don't know.
- -Gary
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05-28-1998, 12:30 AM #7craig@finance.econ.usyd.Guest
Bloodline strength enhancement?
At 12:15 PM 27/5/98 +0200, you wrote:
>I feel that it should be possible to raise the bloodline strength (tainted
>-> minor, minor -> major etc) for a character (PC or NPC) but I don't really
>have an idea to construct a rule on it.
>
>I have thought about basing it on the Bloodline score, but that seems wrong.
>
>Any ideas on this out there? Or is it a creazy idea altogether?
>
I agree it should be possible but in terms of the game mechanics it has no
effect. All that is important is how many blood points you have. Remember
that a bloodline strength is only a historical reflection of what was
inhereted by the characters ancestors at the demise of the gods and nothing
more.
Craig
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05-28-1998, 01:03 AM #8Brett LangGuest
Bloodline strength enhancement?
I use the BL strength as a reference to the TYPE and NO# of BL-Powers that
his BL-Score will generally allow a character. If minor, then his powers
will be mostly (minor), if major (then he will have more major abilities),
if great, his powers will be exceptionally potent, AND if True, well.....
just check out the array of abilities as represented by those such as the
Manslayer and the Gorgon !
- -----Original Message-----
From: The Olesen's
To: birthright@MPGN.COM
Date: Wednesday, 27 May 1998 18:30
Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Bloodline strength enhancement?
>tduexx@students.aabc.dk wrote:
>>
>> I feel that it should be possible to raise the bloodline strength
(tainted
>> -> minor, minor -> major etc) for a character (PC or NPC) but I don't
really
>> have an idea to construct a rule on it.
>>
>> I have thought about basing it on the Bloodline score, but that seems
wrong.
>>
>> Any ideas on this out there? Or is it a creazy idea altogether?
>>
>
>We had dicussed this earlier and pretty much came up with the idea that
>Minor/Major/Great had no real effect on a person's bloodline and was
>just a symbol of what kind of bloodline thay came from.
>
>A tained bloodline guy could rule well and kill lots of bad Azari guys
>and eventually get his bloodline into the 50s. You might say that his
>kid would have a Major bloodline (maybee even great)
>
>At leat thats what I got from everyone, corect me if I am wrong
>************************************************* **************************
>>'unsubscribe birthright' as the body of the message.
-
05-28-1998, 07:10 AM #9Ryan B. CaveneyGuest
Bloodline strength enhancement?
Keyplate72@aol.com wrote:
> decided ten wives and mistresses giving birth...
> l little bloodtheft...
> wham...
> a few years to great bloodline strength!!
We've seen a roleplaying answer; now I'll toss in a
pseudoscientific one. In official rules, bloodstrength is heritable (100%
so: no environmental variance) and exhibits (again 100%!) regression
towards the mean (i.e., the average value of childrens' bloodstrength is
the average value of the parents'), as is characteristic of polygenic
traits. ("Polygenic" means controlled by more than one gene, like height
is. This is why height looks normally distributed: it's like flipping 20
coins, some of them two-headed or two-tailed.) Let's think about what
modelling it as one suggests.
What do I mean by this? For computer types, it means combination
of bloodline strengths is not by mathematical addition, but rather by
bitwise OR(see footnote). In less technical terms, imagine a card game
(standard poker deck) in which the point value of a hand is the number of
distinct face values it contains: e.g., 10 J Q K A evaluates to 5, but J J
J J Q Q Q evaluates to only 2. In this model, bloodline strength by name
(e.g, major) is the number of cards in your hand, and bloodline point
score is the value of your hand. I suddenly begin to like this idea more,
as I have just explained how "great, 8" is possible and even probable in
inbred families. Imagine this expanded to whatever number of bloodline
points you think it takes to make a god (a thousand? a million?), and put
that many distinct cards per derivation (suit) in your hypothetical deck.
When the gods exploded, their "cards" were scattered randomly between the
people close to them. Going back to "great, 8", this model can also be
easily extended to explain why there are rules for losing blood points for
bad actions, but not for gaining them by good ones: to lose a point, the
land, through the magical link that provides RPs, can simply erase one of
your existing cards; to gain one, you have to steal a new card from
somebody else's hand.
When you have children, they get copies of half your cards,
selected at random. When you kill a blooded scion, you get 1, 2, 1/5 or
1/2 of their cards, also chosen randomly. Thus, if you kill your own
child, you stand a fair chance of getting a copy of one of the cards you
already hold, and thus not getting an increase; indeed, if you kill a
child you had by a commoner, you are guaranteed to not get any new cards.
This model does not limit the number of people who can be blooded (there
can be arbitrarily many cards in the deck), but it does limit (albeit to
an operationally infinite number) the number of blood points (the number
of distinct types of cards in the deck) anyone can conceivably have.
How would one modify existing rules to use this model? Almost not
at all, except to say that killing your blood relatives gets you little or
nothing. It should also mean that there is a slight chance that
bloodtheft of anybody gets you nothing, but since even the strongest
bloodlines around today are much less than the total power of the original
gods, the chance of this is extremely small unless you are very closely
related to someone. On the other hand, it does provide (and justify) a
way to slow down the people at the top (e.g., the Gorgon) relative to
others: for example, you might choose to say that since the Gorgon has
killed so many scions of Anduiras that he has collected a fair portion of
the cards of that suit, he should gain only half as many bloodline points
from bloodtheft of one as he would from someone with the same strength but
different derivation.
Thank you for asking that question! I might never have thought of
this otherwise. Yay BR discussion list! Now I know how bloodstrength
works IMC, and what it is. =)
- --Ryan
Footnote: bitwise OR is not equivalent to the card analogy; it is,
however, exactly how true biological polygenic inheritance is thought to
work. (Which means the card model is not actually equivalent to polygenic
inheritance, but it is both easier to explain to a gaming crowd, and has a
couple of extra features that actually make it better for describing the
way bloodlines work.)
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05-28-1998, 09:55 PM #10bloebick@juno.com (BenjaGuest
Bloodline strength enhancement?
On Thu, 28 May 1998 03:10:53 -0400 (EDT) "Ryan B. Caveney"
writes:
> We've seen a roleplaying answer; now I'll toss in a
>pseudoscientific one. In official rules, bloodstrength is heritable
>(100%
>so: no environmental variance) and exhibits (again 100%!) regression
>towards the mean (i.e., the average value of childrens' bloodstrength
>is
>the average value of the parents'), as is characteristic of polygenic
>traits. ("Polygenic" means controlled by more than one gene, like
>height
>is. This is why height looks normally distributed: it's like flipping
>20
>coins, some of them two-headed or two-tailed.) Let's think about what
>modelling it as one suggests.
OK. Now I've seen it all. I can die in peace. I have seen something
that completely boggled my mind and confused the hell out of me until I
read it the 9th time, and it was all about a ROLE-PLAYING GAME!!!!
Ryan, I would really hate to see your explanations and answers to
questions like "What should we do for welfare reform". I think I'd die
from the information overload. ;)
(that was all a joke, btw, not flame-bait).
Benjamin
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