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  1. #11
    Site Moderator Magian's Avatar
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    Originally posted by RaspK_FOG@Jul 2 2004, 01:11 AM
    It may well be so, Magian, but your initial post did not make such a thing apparent. In any case, if people think you try (even inadvertently so) to invalidate their work, they will react; and, by the way, I think that it was also sanctioned, that part regarding scion levels. In such a system, a blooded character can achieve his potential at any point, without becoming unbalancing for the campaign; if your objection comes to that, allow me to say that doing things otherwise would be unfair to other players who would like to play typical non-blooded adventurers.
    If I want to attack anyone's work it will be quite clear.
    One law, One court, One allied people, One coin, and one tax, is what I shall bring to Cerilia.

  2. #12
    Site Moderator Magian's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Bearcat@Jul 2 2004, 01:45 AM

    Here we go again with the bringing the new generation of gamers to Birthright speech again.
    Is there something wrong with bringing in new players? I added that as kind of an afterthought/sidebenefit to the main point that I was being saved the trouble of doing most of the conversion work. I didn't realise it was a controversial issue.
    Not at all bring as many new players as you like. I just don't share the sentimental value that you do.
    One law, One court, One allied people, One coin, and one tax, is what I shall bring to Cerilia.

  3. #13
    Site Moderator Magian's Avatar
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    Originally posted by irdeggman@Jul 2 2004, 03:18 AM
    The way I view balance in 3.5 is not in terms of characters and NPCs but from a player view point...

    ...Now which player is getting the raw end of this deal? How would he/she feel about the situation?
    Yes I agree this is a very good reason for the balance system. It does pose a major problem for what I am proposing with my question of necessity.

    Yet I do think that the bloodline system transcends the normal balance since characters are usually born with them or at least inherit them from invest or theft. Though yes it is a game and games tend to need balance in order for fun, I don't think real life (RL) is balanced and we can still have fun with it also. Therefore within the mechanics of the game, those of us who wish to stay true to them I agree and accept your justification for going ahead with level adjustment (LA) for bloodlines and perhaps bloodform and bloodtrait after effects.

    However no matter how bad I feel about not being born to a rich family no real form of compensation will ever come my way to make the playing field equal on a scale of rich vs. poor. Therefore I feel a birthright like a bloodline (usually a birthright) does give unfair advantages and justly so. Even if we give all players a chance to roll for a bloodline and some get none, some get minor, and maybe another gets major, using the chance system can be justified even without using LA for a so called balance.

    The reasoning I have for a bloodline to transcend the normal mechanics is because firstly it is of divine origin, thereby not confined to normal restraints. Even if you consider using rules to balance outsiders (outerplanars) they do not even reach the level of power that the essence of the gods let alone the gods themselves. Secondly it is mostly a domain level system that is used for a level of play that is beyond class and party level balance system. And thirdly it is what makes a player character (PC) unique to birthright and its setting. It allows for a chance as a pretty cool advantage over that of other settings.

    It seems we have established thus far that it is not necessary for LA when using bloodlines. It is a matter of choice seems to be the consensus. Therefore I would like to see what other ideas there are for using bloodlines without LA.

    Bearcat came up with an idea of using a pseudo LA which is an interesting idea. Any others out there?
    One law, One court, One allied people, One coin, and one tax, is what I shall bring to Cerilia.

  4. #14
    Senior Member RaspK_FOG's Avatar
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    Originally posted by "Magian"
    If I want to attack anyone's work it will be quite clear.
    What I meant is that people will react even if they think that you might be indirectly "attacking" their work, whether there is any such intention or not.

  5. #15
    Site Moderator Magian's Avatar
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    Originally posted by RaspK_FOG@Jul 3 2004, 09:51 AM
    What I meant is that people will react even if they think that you might be indirectly "attacking" their work, whether there is any such intention or not.
    I thought you were quite clear the first time.
    One law, One court, One allied people, One coin, and one tax, is what I shall bring to Cerilia.

  6. #16
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    Here is an example...
    a 1st level paladin(of haylen) regent Great scoin(of Andurias) goes adventuring with three 3rd level PCs with no/minor BLs. (All experience calculated normally, thus no hinderance on advancement potential)

    If any problems handle them as they come.

    (just a thought)

  7. #17
    I had a sudden thought today on this subject. It seems to me that the need for the level adjustment also derives from choice, which is given to Players on a greater level in the BRCS than in the original campaign. By this I mean that now the rules make provisions for allowing players to choose their bloodlines and bloodabilites and for players to automatically gain bloodabilities as the bloodline score increases.

    Thus if you don't have the Level Adjustment (in the form of a level adjustment or class level), then you lose any effective counter to parties of major/great bloodlines. If you use the level Adjustments, then there is a tradeoff on the part of the players and so you make those line rarer (players who value them more will be willing to sacrifice more to get them, others won't).

    So if you eliminate the level adjustment then you need to take an action that eliminates completely the rational decision making that goes into a bloodline as it appears in the BRCS, and you should do it on every level. This means that players should probably roll their bloodlines on the tables that appear in the original rule book for derivation, strength, and points. I would also recommend using the table used to determine whether a character gains bloodabilities as well. When it comes to handing out the actual abilities I would probably use the random ability tables in the BRCS, as that would ensure Players got 3E compatible abilities (and save a lot of rerolling, one of the major problems with the original tables).

    In summary: Eliminating LAs while allowing players control of their bloodlines opens up the system for major abuses. Counter this by removing any control the players have over their bloodlines by randomizing it completely.

    Or of course the alternative would be to give the DM complete control of bloodline developement. But that opens up the probability of player resentment, while randomization makes things seem fairer on the surface (until you're stuck with a tainted bloodline while Rufus down the road has a great one).

  8. #18
    Site Moderator Magian's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Bearcat@Jul 6 2004, 03:57 PM
    In summary: Eliminating LAs while allowing players control of their bloodlines opens up the system for major abuses. Counter this by removing any control the players have over their bloodlines by randomizing it completely.
    That is a good point. To me it seemed very arbitrary to use level adjustment (LA) with bloodlines. The reason being is because I do use the random rolling system for both strength and blood abilities. Therefore I agree with your conslusion. We are free to use either system and neither is necessarily better it is a matter of preference. Thanks Bearcat, btw have you made any new war cards?
    One law, One court, One allied people, One coin, and one tax, is what I shall bring to Cerilia.

  9. #19

    Thanks Bearcat, btw have you made any new war cards?
    No problem. I'm glad I could finally get to the root of the problem. And no, I can't say that I have done any work with war cards. Why do you ask?

  10. #20
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    Well.... i think letting them DM control it is a good way to go too but I'ma DM so i guess that doesn't matter 2 much.... plus i never played in a campaign that was controlled by an 'unfair' DM....

    But instead of complete control i would probably give them choices as whole templates... like for a certain (preset by DM) group of Blood abilities/line strenth/& lvl-Exp...

    (Slightly edited so i don't look like a moron)

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