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  1. #1
    Rasmus Juul Wagner
    Guest

    Humans, elves and spellcasters

    >

    > >> then I even made 1 in every 5 elves a wizard (same chance of being
    > >> wizard as a human adventurer from the Monstous Manual. If I had used the
    > >> figures from the elven part then 1 of every 40 elves would have been a
    > >> wizard) and that gave me 6 wizards in a population of 16.000.

    I hope you mean 1 in 5 _classed and levelled_ elves.

    >

    IMC, the figures are something like this:
    1 out of 100 humans are blooded. 1 out of 100 nobles becomes a mage
    (that's 1 out of 10,000 humans - matches well with the "eight dozen or
    so" true mages that are supposed to live in Anuire).
    1 out of 10 nobles becomes a magician. It's far easier to be a magician
    than a mage IMC.
    1 out of 1,000 commoners becomes a magician.

    Among elves, 1 in 100 becomes a magician, and 1 out of 10 magicians
    become mages. That's around 10 times the concentration of magic that
    humans have, and maybe it's on the generous side. The BR book states
    that mages are fairly rare even among elves.

    As for priests, approximately 1 in 500 becomes a spellcasting priest.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    "Preemptive Retribution"

    Rasmus Juul Wagner
    Technical University of Denmark
    c958650@student.dtu.dk
    www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Stadium/7859
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

  2. #2
    Belgariad
    Guest

    Humans, elves and spellcasters

    This is my first reply, but I felt that after 6 months I sound put in my 2
    cents worth.

    I won't disagree with the numbers that you use for calculating the amount of
    true magic users per capita. What I have always used in my games is that
    magic is so prevalent in the elven life, that almost every member of the race
    has an understanding and ability in it. I also find that elven magus are a
    cut above, and have devoted themselves to it in a more detailed way. The
    greater population uses their magic in what could be described as an innate
    ability, using it without much thought. Such spells as Cantrips, Feather
    Fall, light, etc.. ( I hope you get where I'm trying to take this). Whereas
    true magic users take the time to harness those abilities, to a 'fine edge'.
    There by taking a path of greater ability and power.

    Well, I'm done preaching to the choir. I await your comments.

    Vince G. (It's time to thin the herd)

  3. #3
    Ryan B. Caveney
    Guest

    Humans, elves and spellcasters

    On Fri, 15 May 1998, Rasmus Juul Wagner wrote:
    >
    > Among elves, 1 in 100 becomes a magician, and 1 out of 10 magicians

    Elves don't become magicians (the class is listed as human only,
    but goblins are also allowed according to the goblin card), because they
    don't need to. Since they can all cast true magic, they may as well just
    become specialist diviners or illusionists. (Yes, I know the BR book says
    wizards can't specialize in those two things, but that's silly for elves
    who could then theoretically specialize in necromancy or evocation but not
    illusion or divination.)

    - --Ryan

  4. #4
    Ryan B. Caveney
    Guest

    Humans, elves and spellcasters

    On Fri, 15 May 1998, Belgariad wrote:

    > What I have always used in my games is that magic is so prevalent in the
    > elven life, that almost every member of the race has an understanding
    > and ability in it.

    This is my thought, and apparently Simon Hawke's (_The Iron
    Throne_) as well. It also definitely fits with the "creatures of faerie
    dust and starlight" concept of the rulebook.

    > greater population uses their magic in what could be described as an innate
    > ability, using it without much thought. Such spells as Cantrips, Feather
    > Fall, light, etc.. ( I hope you get where I'm trying to take this).

    The drow innate spell list, slightly modified. A good plan.

    > true magic users take the time to harness those abilities, to a 'fine edge'.
    > There by taking a path of greater ability and power.

    One thing we haven't really looked at yet in this discussion of
    elven magic is what they do with it. Given their interests, I think
    for every Sidhelien archmage who knows a battle spell, there are several
    who only use their spells to do topiary. If there were a major war on,
    they could be taught combat magic, but would be much more inclined to
    develop spells of their own that caused a whole army's weapons to turn
    into musical instruments and bunches of flowers, or just drop everything,
    have a big party, and go home magically drunk without actually having
    fought at all (a la the giant joint scene in "History of the World").
    As an example, look at the "Revenge of the Sidhelien" realm spell
    from the netbook (http://darkstar.cyberserv.com/netbook/realm/realm13.html)
    which polymorphs enemy units into cute fluffy bunnies and suchlike.

    - --Ryan

  5. #5
    Gary V. Foss
    Guest

    Humans, elves and spellcasters

    Ryan B. Caveney wrote:

    > Elves don't become magicians (the class is listed as human only,
    > but goblins are also allowed according to the goblin card), because they
    > don't need to. Since they can all cast true magic, they may as well just
    > become specialist diviners or illusionists. (Yes, I know the BR book says
    > wizards can't specialize in those two things, but that's silly for elves
    > who could then theoretically specialize in necromancy or evocation but not
    > illusion or divination.)

    I don't know. I rather think non-blooded individuals (or blooded ones, for
    that matter) should be allowed to be either specialist illusionists or
    deviners. I've made this argument before on this board, so I'm not going to
    reprise it, but it makes perfect sense ot me.

    Of course, the illusionist speciality is supposed to be restricted to humans or
    gnomes, but what the heck? I don't see why an elven wizard should not be
    allowed to specialize.

    Anyway, my whole argument came about because of a non-blooded character, a
    bard, in my campaign. He had a high enough intelligence and dexterity to
    dual-class to a specialized illusionist, but could not become a magician
    because that class' prime requisites are intelligence and wisdom. After some
    consideration, I couldn't come up with a reason for there not to be
    illusionists in a BR campaign, so I allowed it.

    Laters,
    Gary

  6. #6
    Gary V. Foss
    Guest

    Humans, elves and spellcasters

    Ryan B. Caveney wrote:

    > On Fri, 15 May 1998, Belgariad wrote:
    >
    > > What I have always used in my games is that magic is so prevalent in the
    > > elven life, that almost every member of the race has an understanding
    > > and ability in it.
    >
    > This is my thought, and apparently Simon Hawke's (_The Iron
    > Throne_) as well. It also definitely fits with the "creatures of faerie
    > dust and starlight" concept of the rulebook.

    Personally, I like to think of the elven use of magic as being more similar to our
    modern outlook towards technology. We're used to its presence around us, we toy
    around with it from time to time and use it to our advantage, but relatively few
    of use could take apart a microwave oven and explain exactly how it works. That's
    what a mage would be in an elven community. A pointy-eared techie with flowers in
    his hair and a penchant for green hosiery.

    > > greater population uses their magic in what could be described as an innate
    > > ability, using it without much thought. Such spells as Cantrips, Feather
    > > Fall, light, etc.. ( I hope you get where I'm trying to take this).
    >
    > The drow innate spell list, slightly modified. A good plan.

    Hmmm. I like the idea of elves having a few more powers than the "mundane" ones
    listed in the Rulebook, but I don't know if I want them to actually be able to
    cast spells by their very nature.

    > Given their interests, I think
    > for every Sidhelien archmage who knows a battle spell, there are several
    > who only use their spells to do topiary. If there were a major war on,
    > they could be taught combat magic, but would be much more inclined to
    > develop spells of their own that caused a whole army's weapons to turn
    > into musical instruments and bunches of flowers, or just drop everything,
    > have a big party, and go home magically drunk without actually having
    > fought at all (a la the giant joint scene in "History of the World").

    Ha! Oh, man! Ryan, you slay me! I about laughed myself sick at that image.
    Elven kingdoms filled with poodle-trees and swan-bushes! That's killer funny.

    In fairness, however, I don't see why elven mages wouldnt' have come up with
    battle magic before human ones. Part of what I like about the BR setting is that
    it reinterprets elves, making them allied with nature but not necessarily the
    flitty, faerie-like creatures that some folks like to portray them. BR elves can
    be pretty dark, nasty folks which is just fine by me.

    Laters,
    Gary

  7. #7
    Ryan B. Caveney
    Guest

    Humans, elves and spellcasters

    On Fri, 15 May 1998, Gary V. Foss wrote:

    > Personally, I like to think of the elven use of magic as being more similar to our
    > modern outlook towards technology. We're used to its presence around us, we toy
    > around with it from time to time and use it to our advantage, but relatively few
    > of use could take apart a microwave oven and explain exactly how it works. That's
    > what a mage would be in an elven community. A pointy-eared techie with flowers in
    > his hair and a penchant for green hosiery.

    Oh, this is good! This analogy I *like*.

    > Hmmm. I like the idea of elves having a few more powers than the "mundane" ones
    > listed in the Rulebook, but I don't know if I want them to actually be able to
    > cast spells by their very nature.

    Sure, I don't want them casting damage-doing spells just by
    wanting to, either! I'm talking about minor bits of glamour, here:
    keeping your hair nicely coiffed even in high winds, keeping your shirt
    looking newly-pressed even when wet, dusting your coffetable, that sort of
    thing. Cantrips, basically. But *everywhere*. I also sort of envision
    virtually all housecleaning being done by unseen servants, and almost all
    lighting provided by variable-brightness continual light lamps (especially
    as torches in treehouses are a really bad idea).

    > Ha! Oh, man! Ryan, you slay me! I about laughed myself sick at that image.
    > Elven kingdoms filled with poodle-trees and swan-bushes! That's killer funny.

    Thank you! My point is basically that while humans think
    magic is scary and dangerous and to be reserved only for emergencies,
    elves do everything they can with magic, because it's beautiful and fun.
    Elven wizards use spells to sculpt living wood, make actual flea circuses,
    and otherwise beautify their world and entertain themselves and their
    neighbors. The Cormanthyr book has some nice touches (and some things
    that are way too powerful, and others that might be modified into realm
    spells), like the Wall of Force variant that makes a small, controllably-
    air-permeable sheet of solid magic for use as a windowpane.
    The idea is that elven habitations should be weird and wonderful
    places, through the use of magic dedicated to making them so. So while
    elves I feel have much more magical power than humans do, they make use of
    it very differently... most of the time.

    > In fairness, however, I don't see why elven mages wouldnt' have come up with
    > battle magic before human ones. Part of what I like about the BR setting is that
    > it reinterprets elves, making them allied with nature but not necessarily the
    > flitty, faerie-like creatures that some folks like to portray them. BR elves can
    > be pretty dark, nasty folks which is just fine by me.

    I agree! Some silly flower-children are nice for comic relief,
    but many of the other elves should see them that way, too. And they can
    be combined in the same individual: a bunch of rowdy humans interrupting a
    wizard's magical Punch-and-Judy show for the local elven kindergarten
    should not be surprised to be blasted into pink mist in the same breath
    as the wizard a makes a joke to the children about doing so.

    - --Ryan

  8. #8
    KirbyRanma
    Guest

    Humans, elves and spellcasters

    In a message dated 98-05-15 04:23:46 EDT, you write:



    Is this for human and dwarven priests only or include elf priests? I
    thought Birthright elves didn't have priests because they didn't have gods?

    Take care all,
    Kirby
    "Player extraordinaire"

  9. #9
    Rasmus Juul Wagner
    Guest

    Humans, elves and spellcasters

    Ryan B. Caveney wrote:
    >
    > On Fri, 15 May 1998, Rasmus Juul Wagner wrote:
    > >
    > > Among elves, 1 in 100 becomes a magician, and 1 out of 10 magicians
    >
    > Elves don't become magicians (the class is listed as human only,
    > but goblins are also allowed according to the goblin card), because they
    > don't need to.

    Silly me...well, it's been a long time since I read that part of the
    rulebook. Anyways, IMC, more elves are magicians than wizards, as it is
    simpler to be a magician. Apart from that, many elves learn a spell or
    to which they can cast in magic-rich areas, such as their native
    forests.

    Since they can all cast true magic, they may as well just
    > become specialist diviners or illusionists. (Yes, I know the BR book says
    > wizards can't specialize in those two things, but that's silly for elves
    > who could then theoretically specialize in necromancy or evocation but not
    > illusion or divination.)
    >
    > --Ryan
    >
    > ************************************************** *************************
    > > - --
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    "Preemptive Retribution"

    Rasmus Juul Wagner
    Technical University of Denmark
    c958650@student.dtu.dk
    www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Stadium/7859
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

  10. #10
    Ryan B. Caveney
    Guest

    Humans, elves and spellcasters

    On Sun, 17 May 1998, Rasmus Juul Wagner wrote:

    > it is simpler to be a magician.

    Not if you're blooded or elven! Being a wizard requires Int 9;
    being a magician requires Int 12, Dex 12 and Wis 14. So among the Rjurik,
    for example (the only race which doesn't modify any of those stats),
    133/216 = 61.6% have the stats to be a wizard, but only 81*81*35/216^3 =
    2.28% have the stats to be a magician! Thus, even counting the fact that
    being a human wizard requires a bloodline, which only one person in a
    hundred has, there are less than four (3.7) times as many people eligible
    to be magicians as there are to be wizards. Among elves, since their
    intelligence is always at least nine, there are far more people eligible
    to become wizards than magicians.
    Indeed, the class description states "magicians must work much
    harder at their craft than true mages; magicians lack the innate magical
    ability that characters of elven descent and scions of the bloodlines
    harbor." (BR rulebook 12) IMC (thank you whoever I first saw use that!),
    I emphasize this by giving magicians longer casting times; in my
    interpretation, wizards just sort of reach through their natural
    connection to the mebhaighl and nudge it in certain directions largely by
    force of will, whereas magicians need the focus of complicated ritual and
    the extra energy contained in more and rarer material components.
    I do not apply these restrictions to priests, because in that case it is
    the deity who does all the real work.

    - --Ryan

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