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Thread: SV: elves on a pedestal? (was B
05-14-1998, 12:17 AM #1Fredrik LundbergGuest
SV: elves on a pedestal? (was B
>>Ok, now I have had enough with this glorification of wizards and what they
>can do on the battle field and that they should be so much better then Priests.
>> I have played both classes and find them both very interesting but
>since the introduction of BoP priests are actually better on the battle
>field then wizards. Granted Priests don't have any spells at first level
>which can give a unit an automatic hit like magic missile. Instead they have
>battle spells like Bless, Oaken Strike (which raises the attack value of a
>unit in a manner equal to the 4th level wizard spell Enchanted Weapon),
>Erik's Entanglement and others. At second level they have spells like Hammer
>Storm (which is a better battle spell then either Fireball or Lightning Bolt
>at one spell level lower) and Barkskinned Unit which is another superb
>You realize that Hammer Storm is the battle spell version of spiritual
>hammer. They haven't come out with a battle spell version of many common
>wizard spells (eg. fireball, lightning bolt, Aghanazer's Scorcher, Melf's
>Acid Arrow, etc.) because they would be game enders. ie. I have a 5th level
>wizard, as a battle spell I research Rain of Fireballs, it compeletely
>destroys X units, where X is equal to the casters level (or worse!).
Yes I know that Hammer Storm is the battle spell version of Spiritual hammer but for your information Fireball is already a battle spell just as Flamestrike, Call lightning, lightning bolt, cloudkill and all the other spell that are mentioned on the warcards so a Rain of Fireballs will be as likely to exsist as a any other battle spell of an already exsisting battle spell.
>> These spells that are gained at very low levels are then complemented
>with higher level spells like Cure Unit makes the priest spells equal to
>wizards on the battle field.
>> The real advantage with priests is that they can memorize more spells
>then a wizard of an equal level and if the priest have a high wisdom this
>Try specialist wizards on for size. And as well, wizard spells are
>generally more potent for their level. Eg compare flamestrike and fireball,
>flamestrike is 2 levels higher, and does a 8D6 to a smaller area. A
>fireball cast at that level of ability is 9-10 D6 and affects a much larger
Just because both start with the word fire doesn't mean that they are the same knid of spell. I mean compare Call Lightning to Lightning bolt then they are both of the same level BUT where the wizard can cast a 5d6 lightning bolt a priest of the same level can cast 5 7d8 lightnings that have an 10' radius of impact. This is assuming that the priest doesn't have 17 or more in wisdom because if he have he can cast even more spells. And to make matters even worse for the wizard he needs at least 20.000 xp to be 5th level when a cleric only needs 13.000 so a cleric also advances faster in level then a wizard do.
>>Now to discuss this topic why the elves haven't used their wizards to
>"crush" the armies of the humans we come to the fact that there are more
>human priests of a spellcasting level then there are elven wizards (someone
>said that they calculated the number of wizards of level 8+ in the capital
>province of Tuarhivel to 80, the number is closer to 5 and then I'm being
>generous. To balance this I can say that using the numbers available in BoP
>the WIT can field a minimum of 53 priests of a spell casting level,
>excluding Nichlaer himself).
>I was the guy who did that caculation, using numbers straight from the
>monster manual. Yes, I realize some people figure that the numbers from the
>manual are too high. But, that calculation was solely for the capital city
>of the province (population 16000), not the whole province. As elves
>educate all their people, (no peasant tilling the fields in a society of
>immortals), there are likely a lot more elven spellcasters than humans ones,
>minimum intelligence required for a wizard = 9, minimum elven intelligence =
>8, as opposed to a human attribute minimum of 3!. Finally note that elves
>are immortal, ie. sooner or later they get around to trying everything!
Well I used TSRs own demographic figures to calculated my numbers and then I even made 1 in every 5 elves a wizard (same chance of being wizard as a human adventurer from the Monstous Manual. If I had used the figures from the elven part then 1 of every 40 elves would have been a wizard) and that gave me 6 wizards in a population of 16.000. It is true that elves are immortal and therefor live longer then humans but humans live "faster" which makes humans accumulate xp at a faster rate then elves (I mean if you were immortal why rush things it's not like you will run out of time and die). And concerning your last comment if we follow the rules (I have heard that you should do that sometimes) then elves aren't allowed to dual class only humans are allowed that so all elves will not sooner or later become wizards.
>> On top of this we must also remember that there are human wizards and
>magicians also, certainly there are not as many human wizards as there are
>elven but the best human wizards are of a higher level. Although magicians
>can not cast fireballs and lightning bolts they can use spells like Magic
>Missile, and a very large number of illusions that can be as deadly as any
>Evocation/Invocation spell (take Phantasmal Killer for example, a more
>lethal spell is hard to find).
>Why do you say the best human wizards are higher level ? There are no stupid
>level limits on elven wizards in Birthright! Magicians, as double
>specialist have even higher attribute requirements than normal wizards.
Why do I say that? Simple the highest level elven mage that I have seen in any book is the elven regent of Lluabraight and she is an 18th level wizardress and the highest level human wizard mentioned is 19th level wizard and if am am not totaly wrong there are about 5 elven wizards of level 10+ while there are about 10 human wizards of level 10+ and that is not including the College of Sorcery were they have, correct me if I am wrong, 10 wizards of levels between 9 and 19, and these numbers are only for human wizards, I know of at least two magicians of level 10+ so this clearly gives the magical advantage to humans. If we were to take lower level wizards and magizians into acount then I am sure that the humans have an even greater advantage over the elves since most of the described elven wizards are of levels 10+ while for humans levels below 10 is more common then over 10.
>> Well that was all for now. As I said I got feed up with all this
>pro-wizard and anti-priest talk.
>If anybody wonders why I start writing about this it's not because I believe
>in the so-called elven pedestal. I just object to TSR creating multiple
>intelligent races and saying no matter what happens, the humans will always
>come out on top! In every world they have created the elves are either
>retreating or in decline (including spelljammer, where the imperial elven
>navy gets its collective ass kicked by the scro). It is bloody ridiculous
>that the humans win all the time. So I do occasionaly try to point out the
>occasional logical fallacy, like the elves losing the pre-deismaar wars
>without direct divine intervention.
I agree with you here but then again who says that for example goblins that are even more prolific then humans and also able to become wizards and priests will not come out on top in the end.
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