Results 1 to 6 of 6
  1. #1
    Fredrik Lundberg
    Guest

    elves on a pedestal? (was B

    > I really don't think that's good enough. The proportion of
    >wizards in elven society should be considerably higher than the proportion
    >of priests in human ones. And wizards ar much more effective in battle
    >than are priests. Again, it's simply a matter of numbers, organization
    >and desire.


    Ok, now I have had enough with this glorification of wizards and what they can do on the battle field and that they should be so much better then Priests.

    I have played both classes and find them both very interesting but since the introduction of BoP priests are actually better on the battle field then wizards. Granted Priests don't have any spells at first level which can give a unit an automatic hit like magic missile. Instead they have battle spells like Bless, Oaken Strike (which raises the attack value of a unit in a manner equal to the 4th level wizard spell Enchanted Weapon), Erik's Entanglement and others. At second level they have spells like Hammer Storm (which is a better battle spell then either Fireball or Lightning Bolt at one spell level lower) and Barkskinned Unit which is another superb battle spell.

    These spells that are gained at very low levels are then complemented with higher level spells like Cure Unit makes the priest spells equal to wizards on the battle field.

    The real advantage with priests is that they can memorize more spells then a wizard of an equal level and if the priest have a high wisdom this gap increases.


    Now to discuss this topic why the elves haven't used their wizards to "crush" the armies of the humans we come to the fact that there are more human priests of a spellcasting level then there are elven wizards (someone said that they calculated the number of wizards of level 8+ in the capital province of Tuarhivel to 80, the number is closer to 5 and then I'm being generous. To balance this I can say that using the numbers available in BoP the WIT can field a minimum of 53 priests of a spell casting level, excluding Nichlaer himself).

    On top of this we must also remember that there are human wizards and magicians also, certainly there are not as many human wizards as there are elven but the best human wizards are of a higher level. Although magicians can not cast fireballs and lightning bolts they can use spells like Magic Missile, and a very large number of illusions that can be as deadly as any Evocation/Invocation spell (take Phantasmal Killer for example, a more lethal spell is hard to find).

    Well that was all for now. As I said I got feed up with all this pro-wizard and anti-priest talk.

    Fredrik Lundberg

  2. #2
    Pieter A de Jong
    Guest

    elves on a pedestal? (was B

    At 11:16 PM 5/13/98 +0200, Frederick Lundberg wrote:

    >Ok, now I have had enough with this glorification of wizards and what they
    can do on the battle field and that they should be so much better then Priests.
    >
    > I have played both classes and find them both very interesting but
    since the introduction of BoP priests are actually better on the battle
    field then wizards. Granted Priests don't have any spells at first level
    which can give a unit an automatic hit like magic missile. Instead they have
    battle spells like Bless, Oaken Strike (which raises the attack value of a
    unit in a manner equal to the 4th level wizard spell Enchanted Weapon),
    Erik's Entanglement and others. At second level they have spells like Hammer
    Storm (which is a better battle spell then either Fireball or Lightning Bolt
    at one spell level lower) and Barkskinned Unit which is another superb
    battle spell.
    >
    You realize that Hammer Storm is the battle spell version of spiritual
    hammer. They haven't come out with a battle spell version of many common
    wizard spells (eg. fireball, lightning bolt, Aghanazer's Scorcher, Melf's
    Acid Arrow, etc.) because they would be game enders. ie. I have a 5th level
    wizard, as a battle spell I research Rain of Fireballs, it compeletely
    destroys X units, where X is equal to the casters level (or worse!).
    > These spells that are gained at very low levels are then complemented
    with higher level spells like Cure Unit makes the priest spells equal to
    wizards on the battle field.
    >
    > The real advantage with priests is that they can memorize more spells
    then a wizard of an equal level and if the priest have a high wisdom this
    gap increases.
    >
    Try specialist wizards on for size. And as well, wizard spells are
    generally more potent for their level. Eg compare flamestrike and fireball,
    flamestrike is 2 levels higher, and does a 8D6 to a smaller area. A
    fireball cast at that level of ability is 9-10 D6 and affects a much larger
    area.
    >
    >Now to discuss this topic why the elves haven't used their wizards to
    "crush" the armies of the humans we come to the fact that there are more
    human priests of a spellcasting level then there are elven wizards (someone
    said that they calculated the number of wizards of level 8+ in the capital
    province of Tuarhivel to 80, the number is closer to 5 and then I'm being
    generous. To balance this I can say that using the numbers available in BoP
    the WIT can field a minimum of 53 priests of a spell casting level,
    excluding Nichlaer himself).
    >
    I was the guy who did that caculation, using numbers straight from the
    monster manual. Yes, I realize some people figure that the numbers from the
    manual are too high. But, that calculation was solely for the capital city
    of the province (population 16000), not the whole province. As elves
    educate all their people, (no peasant tilling the fields in a society of
    immortals), there are likely a lot more elven spellcasters than humans ones,
    minimum intelligence required for a wizard = 9, minimum elven intelligence =
    8, as opposed to a human attribute minimum of 3!. Finally note that elves
    are immortal, ie. sooner or later they get around to trying everything!
    > On top of this we must also remember that there are human wizards and
    magicians also, certainly there are not as many human wizards as there are
    elven but the best human wizards are of a higher level. Although magicians
    can not cast fireballs and lightning bolts they can use spells like Magic
    Missile, and a very large number of illusions that can be as deadly as any
    Evocation/Invocation spell (take Phantasmal Killer for example, a more
    lethal spell is hard to find).
    >
    Why do you say the best human wizards are higher level ? There are no stupid
    level limits on elven wizards in Birthright! Magicians, as double
    specialist have even higher attribute requirements than normal wizards.
    > Well that was all for now. As I said I got feed up with all this
    pro-wizard and anti-priest talk.
    >
    >
    If anybody wonders why I start writing about this it's not because I believe
    in the so-called elven pedestal. I just object to TSR creating multiple
    intelligent races and saying no matter what happens, the humans will always
    come out on top! In every world they have created the elves are either
    retreating or in decline (including spelljammer, where the imperial elven
    navy gets its collective ass kicked by the scro). It is bloody ridiculous
    that the humans win all the time. So I do occasionaly try to point out the
    occasional logical fallacy, like the elves losing the pre-deismaar wars
    without direct divine intervention.

    Pieter A de Jong
    Graduate Mechanical Engineering Student
    University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada

  3. #3
    Siebharrin / Arathorn
    Guest

    elves on a pedestal? (was B

    >Now to discuss this topic why the elves haven't used their wizards to
    "crush" the armies of the humans we come to the fact that there are more
    human priests of a spellcasting level then there are elven wizards (someone
    said that they calculated the number of wizards of level 8+ in the capital
    province of Tuarhivel to 80, the number is closer to 5 and then I'm being
    generous. To balance this I can say that using the numbers available in BoP
    the WIT can field a minimum of 53 priests of a spell casting level,
    excluding Nichlaer himself).
    >
    > On top of this we must also remember that there are human wizards and
    magicians also, certainly there are not as many human wizards as there are
    elven but the best human wizards are of a higher level.

    Hehe...
    You forget Siebharrin - "The Lich" ...
    20th level wizzie.
    :) He demolished The Gorgons Armies at Sidheat (Or something like that...)
    He's mentioned in the "Players secrets of Thuarviel".......
    (argh)..

    I've never seen any 20th level *human* mage. hehe. 20th level mages =
    Magian, Siebahrrin and....
    To top that... I think there is a 19th level elven mage in Khinasi
    somewhere...


    Arathorn DarkTome / Siebharrin the lich
    Einar Helgerud
    einarh@fagerborg.vgs.no

  4. #4
    Siebharrin / Arathorn
    Guest

    elves on a pedestal? (was B

    At 12:21 14.05.98 +0200, you wrote:
    >>Hehe...
    >>You forget Siebharrin - "The Lich" ...
    >>20th level wizzie.
    >>:) He demolished The Gorgons Armies at Sidheat (Or something like that...)
    >>He's mentioned in the "Players secrets of Thuarviel".......
    >>(argh)..
    >
    >
    >With a nick name like the Lich are you sure he is an elf? :-)


    Siebharrin was one of the most powerful mages the elves of thuarviel has
    ever had.
    When the Gorgon tried to take Sidheath(Or something). He created a rift to
    the Shadow world, which killed all creatures in the province. The only
    living being in the Sidheath is Siebharrin. The reason why he's being
    called "the lich" is that his skin has,during the last couple of years,
    grown whiter.
    And that his Detect Life (great) reminds him of his terrible mistake.
    And *none* of the spies the gorgon has sent to sidheath has returned.


    Now.. this is almost what has been written in the "Players secrets to
    Thuarviel"
    But he's an elf all right. :)

    Arathorn DarkTome / Siebharrin

  5. #5
    Fredrik Lundberg
    Guest

    elves on a pedestal? (was B

    >Hehe...
    >You forget Siebharrin - "The Lich" ...
    >20th level wizzie.
    >:) He demolished The Gorgons Armies at Sidheat (Or something like that...)
    >He's mentioned in the "Players secrets of Thuarviel".......
    >(argh)..


    With a nick name like the Lich are you sure he is an elf? :-)

    >I've never seen any 20th level *human* mage. hehe. 20th level mages =
    >Magian, Siebahrrin and....
    >To top that... I think there is a 19th level elven mage in Khinasi
    >somewhere...


    That would be one elusive elf since the only 19th level wizard I can remember in Khinasi is El-Sheighül an he isn't an elf he is actually a Khinasi/Lost

    Fredrik

  6. #6
    rad smith
    Guest

    elves on a pedestal? (was B

    > When that folklore too began
    > to pass away, the people began to think of the elves as angels who had not
    > taken sides in Lucifer's rebellion, and come down to earth to get away
    > from it all.

    this being why faeries don't have souls (according to medieval christian
    belief) similarly to angels and demons. this ties in nicely with them
    having no priests in birthright.


    - --
    rad

    uneasy listening music

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