Stupid Elf Tricks?

[Pieter A de Jong]

All right, a while ago on this list, I commented on the fact that the elven
domains support level 6 provinces without any evidence of organized agriculture.
So, I am know asking about how this might make sense. I see several
possibilities
1.) The elves trade for the food they eat
This one is difficult because the elves have lousy foreign relations
(for example the realm of Lluabright is completely closed). Not to mention
that transporting that much food could get a little difficult.
2.) The elves use magic to create the food they eat
All right this is at least in theory possible, with customized
wizard spells, or even simply with major creation spells. But, this implies
a lot of wizards; Do we really want that many elven wizards running around?
3.) Elves don't need to eat like humans do
This is also viable, what with elves being immortal creatures of
starlight and faerie dust. Maybe they just don't need as much food as
humans do, maybe they only eat because it tastes good, maybe they live off
starlight?

Okay, so there are the three possiblities that I saw, I would like to hear
from everyone, especially TSR folks, what do you think?


Pieter A de Jong
Graduate Mechanical Engineering Student
University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada

[Pieter A de Jong]

This is my second post under the heading stupid elf tricks. I was recently
rereading the racial descriptions and I got to the part about the elven
ability to ignore the surfaces that they are walking over. How far does
this extend, slick wet stones in a ford over a river, oil, ball
bearings/marbles,caltrops, oil of slipperiness? What say the netpeople?

Pieter A de Jong
Graduate Mechanical Engineering Student
University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada

[Clayton F. Hinton]

I run Birthright a little, and here's my explanation: Elves pick their own
food from the forest, and therefor the Forest is their Garden. Simple
enough for my campaign, anyway.

- -Clay Hinton
chinton@mail.utexas.edu


At 02:07 PM 5/12/98 -0600, you wrote:
>All right, a while ago on this list, I commented on the fact that the elven
>domains support level 6 provinces without any evidence of organized
agriculture.
>So, I am know asking about how this might make sense. I see several
>possibilities
> 1.) The elves trade for the food they eat
> This one is difficult because the elves have lousy foreign relations
>(for example the realm of Lluabright is completely closed). Not to mention
>that transporting that much food could get a little difficult.
> 2.) The elves use magic to create the food they eat
> All right this is at least in theory possible, with customized
>wizard spells, or even simply with major creation spells. But, this implies
>a lot of wizards; Do we really want that many elven wizards running around?
> 3.) Elves don't need to eat like humans do
> This is also viable, what with elves being immortal creatures of
>starlight and faerie dust. Maybe they just don't need as much food as
>humans do, maybe they only eat because it tastes good, maybe they live off
>starlight?
>
>Okay, so there are the three possiblities that I saw, I would like to hear
>from everyone, especially TSR folks, what do you think?
>
>

[James Ruhland]

> 3.) Elves don't need to eat like humans do
>
Elves are leaf-eatters and dandelion-devourers. They'll eat whatever fungus
and/or lichen the forest will provide.

[James Ruhland]

>
> This is my second post under the heading stupid elf tricks. I was
recently
> rereading the racial descriptions and I got to the part about the elven
> ability to ignore the surfaces that they are walking over. How far does
> this extend, slick wet stones in a ford over a river, oil, ball
> bearings/marbles,caltrops, oil of slipperiness? What say the netpeople?
>
it extends over terrain features; Elves, dispite their Messiah complex,
can't walk on water, or oils of slipperiness, caltrops, and the like.

[Clayton F. Hinton]

I would say the slick wet stones would be treated like normal dirt for an
Elf, but the other examples the Elf would have to deal with it just like us
Humans. Caltrops could hurt just about anyone, and the Oil is designed to
do so. The Elven ability is a non-magical one, so I do not see how they
could avoid weapons or magic items with it.

- -Clay
chinton@mail.utexas.edu

At 02:10 PM 5/12/98 -0600, you wrote:
>This is my second post under the heading stupid elf tricks. I was recently
>rereading the racial descriptions and I got to the part about the elven
>ability to ignore the surfaces that they are walking over. How far does
>this extend, slick wet stones in a ford over a river, oil, ball
>bearings/marbles,caltrops, oil of slipperiness? What say the netpeople?
>

[Ryan B. Caveney]

> > ability to ignore the surfaces that they are walking over. How far does
> > this extend, slick wet stones in a ford over a river, oil, ball
> > bearings/marbles,caltrops, oil of slipperiness? What say the netpeople?
> >
> it extends over terrain features; Elves, dispite their Messiah complex,
> can't walk on water, or oils of slipperiness, caltrops, and the like.

A point I think is useful to make is the "natural setting"
condition: caltrops and ball bearings present an impediment to elves since
they re not natural formations. On the other hand, they can walk easily
up natural slopes consisting of damp pebbles and never get stuck in the
mud, as to do otherwise would violate their defined ability to pass
without trace. This also means that an elf hiking through the forest
never tears his clothes, or even gets them seriously dirty. He can,
however, get thoroughly soaked.

- --Ryan

[James Ruhland]

>
> A point I think is useful to make is the "natural setting"
> condition: caltrops and ball bearings present an impediment to elves
since
> they re not natural formations. On the other hand, they can walk easily
> up natural slopes consisting of damp pebbles and never get stuck in the
> mud, as to do otherwise would violate their defined ability to pass
> without trace. This also means that an elf hiking through the forest
> never tears his clothes, or even gets them seriously dirty. He can,
> however, get thoroughly soaked.
>
I'd like to offer a (minor) amendment to that, though:
Elves can walk up slopes, but they can't walk up cliffs. Nor are they
immune to, say, quicksand, or avalanches. However, that other junk, sure.

[Ryan B. Caveney]

On Tue, 12 May 1998, Pieter A de Jong wrote:

> All right, a while ago on this list, I commented on the fact that the elven
> domains support level 6 provinces without any evidence of organized agriculture.

> 1.) The elves trade for the food they eat

Not a chance. Depend for their very survival on outsiders?
They're too proud and too smart to do that.

> 2.) The elves use magic to create the food they eat

This can be a very subtle point: Nature *likes* elves, and cuts
them all sorts of slack. I'd say elven forests are bursting with life,
and the land can simply support more people. Consider that the magic
potential of a province is a measure of the vitality of the land itself:
you get a much better crop of *wild* wheat just springing up between the
trees in a forest province with a source (9) than can be sowed by humans
in a plains province (5/0). Well, make that better in the sense of more
nourishing -- a pint of wild strawberries from a province (9) could feed
a human well for a day, too.

> 3.) Elves don't need to eat like humans do
> Maybe they just don't need as much food as humans do,

That is certainly the attitude of the Complete Book of Elves.

> maybe they only eat because it tastes good, maybe they live off starlight?

This is the Runequest (Glorantha) solution: the "elves" are
basically treants, and thus photosynthetic. My problem with this is that
elves are just too short compared to oak trees for this to be viable.
However, consider the following idea: elves get some or most of their
sustenance *directly from mebhaighl*. No need for realm spells or
anything, just the need to live in areas where there's a lot of magical
energy just being there and very slowly oozing off into the elves. This
explanation also does a decent job for immortality, and not needing a
bloodline to cast magic. One consequence of this is that if an elf goes
to a province with a magic potential less than a certain level, they have
to eat more. Maybe in a province with zero magic potential, they have to
eat more than humans do to maintain the superior vitality!

- --Ryan

[Robert Harper]

For context, I run a non-Birthright campaign that uses Birthright domain
rules etc (with a different explanation of Regency). I permit any
nature-oriented culture to develop to level 4 without impairing Source. This
includes wood and high elves, and druidic cultures in my campaign.

This is predicated on assumptions about harmonious lifestyles, no
overhunting, limited access to materials such as metal ores and stone
(important for weapons, military units and fortification), greater use of
plant and animal products (which may include fantasy products that
substitute for metal and stone in some situations, but overall means using
wooden and primitive weapons - my elves don't wear platemail).

I believe it is realistic. Historically, the sources I rely on say that
"low impact" cultures of hunter/gatherers could support up to 10 people per
square mile. In a typical province (1000-1500 square miles according to the
rulebook, p.33) that would be 10,000 to 15,000 people - or about level 4 -
for an area rich in growth and animal life and with favourable climate.

One could (in Birthright) suppose a combination of the ancient wisdom of
elves (which presumably has had time to learn alot about nature) and magic
can raise this to level 6.

Personally, I prefer assume the affect of magic is simply to counterbalance
malign supernatural influences and maintain production at roughly historical
levels. Historically, hunters didn't have divination spells to help them
(although they thought they did) but they also didn't have voraciously
predatory rivals like owlbears, dragons, trolls etc. and similar hazards to
contend with.

IMHO, Trade is not a viable explanation, as the elves would be relying on
some intensive agriculture civilization outside their own (which seems
repugnant to them, and wouldn't have worked before there were such). There
are spells that have considerable consequences for agricultural production -
Plant Growth, but they are of a clerical and not wizardly bent (the wizard
version of Plant Growth has no benefits for agriculture as the cleric
version does), personally I prefer to keep the "life force
restoring/affirming/boosting" magics in the clerical sphere and make sure
wizardly approaches to these tasks are nasty necromantic ones.

The "elves don't eat as much" argument is the best and most 'flavourful',
although it what assumptions you want to make about whether elves are
biological creatures fundamentally like or unlike others. If they don't
"eat as much" I would only let them get away with that in natural
surroundings. In cities, deserts, caves without rich soil, water, sunlight
(i.e. what would support verdant plant growth) I would have them whither and
die.

At 02:07 PM 5/12/98 -0600, you wrote:
>All right, a while ago on this list, I commented on the fact that the elven
>domains support level 6 provinces without any evidence of organized
agriculture.
>So, I am know asking about how this might make sense. I see several
>possibilities
> 1.) The elves trade for the food they eat
> This one is difficult because the elves have lousy foreign relations
>(for example the realm of Lluabright is completely closed). Not to mention
>that transporting that much food could get a little difficult.
> 2.) The elves use magic to create the food they eat
> All right this is at least in theory possible, with customized
>wizard spells, or even simply with major creation spells. But, this implies
>a lot of wizards; Do we really want that many elven wizards running around?
> 3.) Elves don't need to eat like humans do
> This is also viable, what with elves being immortal creatures of
>starlight and faerie dust. Maybe they just don't need as much food as
>humans do, maybe they only eat because it tastes good, maybe they live off
>starlight?
>
>Okay, so there are the three possiblities that I saw, I would like to hear
>from everyone, especially TSR folks, what do you think?

__________________________________________________ _________________
| |
| We ask ourselves if there is a God, how can this happen? |
| Better to ask, if there is a God, must it be sane? |
| |
| Lucien LaCroix |
|_________________________________________________ __________________|