Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 11 to 19 of 19

Thread: What if...?

  1. #11
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    California, USA
    Posts
    2,165
    Downloads
    4
    Uploads
    0
    My only objection to using the bloodline system of UA to portray the

    awnsheghlien or ersheghlien transformation is that the transformation

    shouldn`t necessarily be very predictable in order to portray how certain

    awnsheghlien go through a rapid change while others manage to avoid their

    corruption to a certain extent for a seemingly very long time. The Sphynx,

    for instance, would appear to be very transformed in comparison to Rhoubhe,

    even though Sphynxie has been around for a centuries while

    Rhoubhie-tobhie`s bloodline has been in existence since Deismaar. Game

    mechanically, I suppose, a level is a level whether it comes from a LA or

    an actual level in a character class, and using a character class allows

    for more flexibility in portraying such a thing.



    In the long run, I suppose there are several awnsheghlien transformations

    that seem to warrant more of a LA than the UA bloodline system uses, and

    the process itself seems to warrant a more significant effect. I`ve used

    nothing but an awnshegh character class to portray several of them in my

    write ups, sometimes 12+ character levels. A lot of that, of course, are

    HD, BAB, saves, etc. but just to get enough transformation effects and

    disadvantages in a way that seemed to work in the context of a D20

    character class sometimes requires a lot of levels. YMMV.



    Gary

  2. #12
    Site Moderator Magian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Thief River Falls, MN
    Posts
    497
    Downloads
    219
    Uploads
    19
    How is it that the Sphinx is further changed than Rhoubhe? Isn't Rhoubhe a shadow elf fully transformed?
    One law, One court, One allied people, One coin, and one tax, is what I shall bring to Cerilia.

  3. #13
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Virginia Beach, Virginia
    Posts
    3,945
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    Since I don't have the books in front of me I'll ask the question.

    I know that the manslayer has bloodform (major), does the sphinx have major or great?

    Also using the UA bloodline system the transformation can be fought by taking an exp penalty. So it could be used to explain things.

    Also I would not go to the extreme of trying to maintain everything exactly like it was in 2nd ed. It just won't work in 3.5, so if people are using a 3.5 based system somethings will by necessity have to change. Hence rewriting the awnshegh/ersh to fit the model that is being developed for the 3.5 system being used.

    Again, as I have pointed out numerous times in the past - 2nd had no pattern or consistency at all when it came to creating monsters. This is totally contrary to everything in 3.5. In 3.5 everything has some standard mechanic used to portray things, and monster creation has been even more fine tuned in 3.5 than it was in 3.0. I wouldn't use a straight 2nd ed comparison to rationalize any system used, instead try to capture the feel and flavor or else the system will absolutely fail because they just aren't totally compatable.
    Duane Eggert

  4. #14
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    California, USA
    Posts
    2,165
    Downloads
    4
    Uploads
    0
    At 08:29 PM 7/1/2004 +0200, irdeggman wrote:



    >I know that the manslayer has bloodform (major), does the sphinx have

    >major or great?



    The Sphynx has bloodform(great).



    In any case, I used the Sphynx in that example, however, just because he`s

    been around for centuries, where Rhoubhe has been around for millenia (or

    so) to convey the time issue of transformation. There are other

    awnsheghlien who have been around only for decades but are more transformed

    than Rhoubhe.



    >Also I would not go to the extreme of trying to maintain everything

    >exactly like it was in 2nd ed.



    I don`t think that needs to be the case here. If one can do it simply and

    easily then why not? A character class does it just as easily (and, in

    fact, without introducing a new kind of rules subset from a book not in the

    core set--which if I understand correctly is one of the things that was

    being avoided in the update) and does it in a way that is more in keeping

    with the original concept.



    Gary

  5. #15
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    California, USA
    Posts
    2,165
    Downloads
    4
    Uploads
    0
    At 05:48 PM 7/1/2004 +0200, Magian wrote:



    >How is it that the Sphinx is further changed than Rhoubhe? Isn`t Rhoubhe

    >a shadow elf fully transformed?



    Maybe... who knows? I know if shooting fiery arrows is particularly a

    shadow elf ability, or if Little Orphan Annie eyeballs particularly

    bespeaks some sort of "awnsidhe" trait. It`s possible, however, that

    Rhoubhe has reached his maximum transformation, though it seems not to

    me. His physical appearance hasn`t really changed dramatically. That`s

    not necessarily a requirement of transformation but it would seem like the

    corrupting power of Azrai would do more than make him darker skinned and

    neutral evil.



    Personally, I see Rhoubhe`s transformation continuing into a kind of

    hulking, autocratic parody of Sidhe culture, consumed by hatred and

    obsessed with his own little war against humanity. Sort of Gilgamesh meets

    Elric with a longbow, or even more apt he could be transforming into

    diabolic creature not unlike the old 1e demon prince Graz`zt but lawful evil.



    When it comes to the actual amount of their transformation, however, the

    Sphynx has been physically altered by his transformation more than Rhoubhe

    has, correct? In fact, most awnshegh are more changed than Rhoubhe is with

    a few notable exceptions (like the Siren.)



    Gary

  6. #16
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Virginia Beach, Virginia
    Posts
    3,945
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    >I know that the manslayer has bloodform (major), does the sphinx have
    >major or great?

    The Sphynx has bloodform(great).

    In any case, I used the Sphynx in that example, however, just because he`s
    been around for centuries, where Rhoubhe has been around for millenia (or
    so) to convey the time issue of transformation. There are other
    awnsheghlien who have been around only for decades but are more transformed
    than Rhoubhe.
    Hmm I have noticed that the awnshegh with the greatest degree of transformations are those with bloodform (great) vice bloodform (major) for those that have the bloodform blood ability. Which is why I made the UA table work give a greater degree of transformation based on the level of bloodform ability (and if the awnshegh has a true bloodline).

    Also I see Rhoubhe resisting the transformation instead of embracing it, (again also recognized by the UA variation). He is the least transformed of all the known true bloodlines. It also helps explain whay a creature (character) that has been around for pretty much ever and was a great elven general before Raesene was even born doesn't have more class levels - a slower progression (i.e., 20% exp penalty) since he is fighting (or has been) the transformation.

    >Also I would not go to the extreme of trying to maintain everything
    >exactly like it was in 2nd ed.

    I don`t think that needs to be the case here. If one can do it simply and
    easily then why not? A character class does it just as easily (and, in
    fact, without introducing a new kind of rules subset from a book not in the
    core set--which if I understand correctly is one of the things that was
    being avoided in the update) and does it in a way that is more in keeping
    with the original concept.
    Again, Gary you've lost me.

    There hasn't been a write up presented yet of an awnshegh that has exactly matched the 2nd ed versions.

    It is pretty much impossible to capture the true power and essence of an awnshegh using a standard class. Which seems to be what you are talking about. Any 20 level class would absolutely fail in doing this and if there are 'empty' levels then it is no longer a standard class. It is conceivalbe to do it via a prestige class since they are basically more powerful than standard classes, but this casues a whole new set of problems since prestige classes themselves are pourely optional and inserting a 'required' prestige class into the BRCS pretty much negates this optional thing.

    UA is OGL so it can be used, but more importantly the UA bloodlines system was used as a guide and not an exact replication so it can very easily work in capturing the awnshegh transformation.

    It is essential not to require anyone to have to use books other than the core 3 books (or SRD) in conjuncture with the BRCS. The UA bloodline based concept does not require this.
    Duane Eggert

  7. #17
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    California, USA
    Posts
    2,165
    Downloads
    4
    Uploads
    0
    At 10:30 PM 7/1/2004 +0200, irdeggman wrote:



    >Again, Gary you`ve lost me.There hasn`t been a write up presented yet of

    >an awnshegh that has exactly matched the 2nd ed versions.It is pretty much

    >impossible to capture the true power and essence of an awnshegh using a

    >standard class. Which seems to be what you are talking about.



    Sheesh, man, you do need a vacation. I posted it weeks ago under the

    thread called "Rhoubhe Manslayer" (odd that this thread came back to that

    awnshegh...) in response to one of your posts. It`s in the birthright-l

    archives in week 4 of April this year

    (http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa...ight-l&P=R5083.)

    There followed a discussion on the possibilities for transformations and

    disadvantages, particularly an insanity disadvantage, which you

    participated in. I`ve been referencing this class and various aspects of

    it for quite a while now....



    I don`t know if it _exactly_ matches the 2e versions, but I`ve yet to find

    an awnshegh that can`t be portrayed using that character class, and

    _exactly_ matching the 2e versions isn`t really the requirement. It just

    needs to match the original BR themes of awnshegh transformation, not

    replicate the 2e characters precisely. It`s open ended enough that new

    things can be added without any particular trouble.



    >Any 20 level class would absolutely fail in doing this and if there are

    >`empty` levels then it is no longer a standard class.



    I`ve been using one for about a year and a half and it seems to work just

    fine.... Every awnshegh description I`ve posted (including the recent

    conversion of the White Witch) has used it to develop the transformation

    effects and other stats of the character description.



    >It is essential not to require anyone to have to use books other than the

    >core 3 books (or SRD) in conjuncture with the BRCS.



    There can be a new class or three, though, correct? There is, after all,

    entire character class descriptions for magicians and nobles in the

    BRCS.... Having one for awnsheghlien and ersheghlien seems like a

    worthwhile inclusion since they are at least as definitive of the campaign

    setting as those other two classes.



    >The UA bloodline based concept does not require this.



    It does require explaining what amounts to a different rules set for the

    purpose of the campaign setting. One wouldn`t have to have UA in order to

    get the concept, but it is something that is culled from that book and

    would make more sense if one saw the whole idea rather than just the BR

    version of it. Nobody is going to have trouble understanding the idea of a

    character class to portray transformation since that already exists in the

    core rules.



    Gary

  8. #18
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Virginia Beach, Virginia
    Posts
    3,945
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    Originally posted by geeman@Jul 1 2004, 04:40 PM
    At 10:30 PM 7/1/2004 +0200, irdeggman wrote:



    >Again, Gary you`ve lost me.There hasn`t been a write up presented yet of

    >an awnshegh that has exactly matched the 2nd ed versions.It is pretty much

    >impossible to capture the true power and essence of an awnshegh using a

    >standard class. Which seems to be what you are talking about.



    Sheesh, man, you do need a vacation. I posted it weeks ago under the

    thread called "Rhoubhe Manslayer" (odd that this thread came back to that

    awnshegh...) in response to one of your posts. It`s in the birthright-l

    archives in week 4 of April this year

    (http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa...ight-l&P=R5083.)

    There followed a discussion on the possibilities for transformations and

    disadvantages, particularly an insanity disadvantage, which you

    participated in. I`ve been referencing this class and various aspects of

    it for quite a while now....



    I don`t know if it _exactly_ matches the 2e versions, but I`ve yet to find

    an awnshegh that can`t be portrayed using that character class, and

    _exactly_ matching the 2e versions isn`t really the requirement. It just

    needs to match the original BR themes of awnshegh transformation, not

    replicate the 2e characters precisely. It`s open ended enough that new

    things can be added without any particular trouble.

    And it is intimately tied into your BP system for bloodlines and blood abilites. If one doesn't use that then the class doesn't work.
    Duane Eggert

  9. #19
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    California, USA
    Posts
    2,165
    Downloads
    4
    Uploads
    0
    At 03:45 AM 7/2/2004 +0200, irdeggman wrote:



    >And it is intimately tied into your BP system for bloodlines and blood

    >abilites. If one doesn`t use that then the class doesn`t work.



    I know, I know. Heaven forbid anyone should want to go with a better way

    of portraying bloodline and a better way of portraying awnsheghlien at the

    same time....



    In any case, there was some discussion of how to remove the BP system from

    the class. It`ll a few paragraphs, I`d guess, so I should be able to crank

    it out pretty quickly. However, I`ll be out of my office until late

    tonight, and there are festivities this weekend what with the 4th of July

    and all.... (I`m planning on celebrating Independence by drinking a lot

    British ale.)



    Gary

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
BIRTHRIGHT, DUNGEONS & DRAGONS, D&D, the BIRTHRIGHT logo, and the D&D logo are trademarks owned by Wizards of the Coast, Inc., a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc., and are used by permission. ©2002-2010 Wizards of the Coast, Inc.