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Thread: What if...?
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07-01-2004, 03:40 PM #11
My only objection to using the bloodline system of UA to portray the
awnsheghlien or ersheghlien transformation is that the transformation
shouldn`t necessarily be very predictable in order to portray how certain
awnsheghlien go through a rapid change while others manage to avoid their
corruption to a certain extent for a seemingly very long time. The Sphynx,
for instance, would appear to be very transformed in comparison to Rhoubhe,
even though Sphynxie has been around for a centuries while
Rhoubhie-tobhie`s bloodline has been in existence since Deismaar. Game
mechanically, I suppose, a level is a level whether it comes from a LA or
an actual level in a character class, and using a character class allows
for more flexibility in portraying such a thing.
In the long run, I suppose there are several awnsheghlien transformations
that seem to warrant more of a LA than the UA bloodline system uses, and
the process itself seems to warrant a more significant effect. I`ve used
nothing but an awnshegh character class to portray several of them in my
write ups, sometimes 12+ character levels. A lot of that, of course, are
HD, BAB, saves, etc. but just to get enough transformation effects and
disadvantages in a way that seemed to work in the context of a D20
character class sometimes requires a lot of levels. YMMV.
Gary
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07-01-2004, 03:48 PM #12
How is it that the Sphinx is further changed than Rhoubhe? Isn't Rhoubhe a shadow elf fully transformed?
One law, One court, One allied people, One coin, and one tax, is what I shall bring to Cerilia.
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07-01-2004, 06:29 PM #13
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Since I don't have the books in front of me I'll ask the question.
I know that the manslayer has bloodform (major), does the sphinx have major or great?
Also using the UA bloodline system the transformation can be fought by taking an exp penalty. So it could be used to explain things.
Also I would not go to the extreme of trying to maintain everything exactly like it was in 2nd ed. It just won't work in 3.5, so if people are using a 3.5 based system somethings will by necessity have to change. Hence rewriting the awnshegh/ersh to fit the model that is being developed for the 3.5 system being used.
Again, as I have pointed out numerous times in the past - 2nd had no pattern or consistency at all when it came to creating monsters. This is totally contrary to everything in 3.5. In 3.5 everything has some standard mechanic used to portray things, and monster creation has been even more fine tuned in 3.5 than it was in 3.0. I wouldn't use a straight 2nd ed comparison to rationalize any system used, instead try to capture the feel and flavor or else the system will absolutely fail because they just aren't totally compatable.Duane Eggert
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07-01-2004, 07:40 PM #14
At 08:29 PM 7/1/2004 +0200, irdeggman wrote:
>I know that the manslayer has bloodform (major), does the sphinx have
>major or great?
The Sphynx has bloodform(great).
In any case, I used the Sphynx in that example, however, just because he`s
been around for centuries, where Rhoubhe has been around for millenia (or
so) to convey the time issue of transformation. There are other
awnsheghlien who have been around only for decades but are more transformed
than Rhoubhe.
>Also I would not go to the extreme of trying to maintain everything
>exactly like it was in 2nd ed.
I don`t think that needs to be the case here. If one can do it simply and
easily then why not? A character class does it just as easily (and, in
fact, without introducing a new kind of rules subset from a book not in the
core set--which if I understand correctly is one of the things that was
being avoided in the update) and does it in a way that is more in keeping
with the original concept.
Gary
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07-01-2004, 07:40 PM #15
At 05:48 PM 7/1/2004 +0200, Magian wrote:
>How is it that the Sphinx is further changed than Rhoubhe? Isn`t Rhoubhe
>a shadow elf fully transformed?
Maybe... who knows? I know if shooting fiery arrows is particularly a
shadow elf ability, or if Little Orphan Annie eyeballs particularly
bespeaks some sort of "awnsidhe" trait. It`s possible, however, that
Rhoubhe has reached his maximum transformation, though it seems not to
me. His physical appearance hasn`t really changed dramatically. That`s
not necessarily a requirement of transformation but it would seem like the
corrupting power of Azrai would do more than make him darker skinned and
neutral evil.
Personally, I see Rhoubhe`s transformation continuing into a kind of
hulking, autocratic parody of Sidhe culture, consumed by hatred and
obsessed with his own little war against humanity. Sort of Gilgamesh meets
Elric with a longbow, or even more apt he could be transforming into
diabolic creature not unlike the old 1e demon prince Graz`zt but lawful evil.
When it comes to the actual amount of their transformation, however, the
Sphynx has been physically altered by his transformation more than Rhoubhe
has, correct? In fact, most awnshegh are more changed than Rhoubhe is with
a few notable exceptions (like the Siren.)
Gary
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07-01-2004, 08:30 PM #16
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>I know that the manslayer has bloodform (major), does the sphinx have
>major or great?
The Sphynx has bloodform(great).
In any case, I used the Sphynx in that example, however, just because he`s
been around for centuries, where Rhoubhe has been around for millenia (or
so) to convey the time issue of transformation. There are other
awnsheghlien who have been around only for decades but are more transformed
than Rhoubhe.
Also I see Rhoubhe resisting the transformation instead of embracing it, (again also recognized by the UA variation). He is the least transformed of all the known true bloodlines. It also helps explain whay a creature (character) that has been around for pretty much ever and was a great elven general before Raesene was even born doesn't have more class levels - a slower progression (i.e., 20% exp penalty) since he is fighting (or has been) the transformation.
>Also I would not go to the extreme of trying to maintain everything
>exactly like it was in 2nd ed.
I don`t think that needs to be the case here. If one can do it simply and
easily then why not? A character class does it just as easily (and, in
fact, without introducing a new kind of rules subset from a book not in the
core set--which if I understand correctly is one of the things that was
being avoided in the update) and does it in a way that is more in keeping
with the original concept.
There hasn't been a write up presented yet of an awnshegh that has exactly matched the 2nd ed versions.
It is pretty much impossible to capture the true power and essence of an awnshegh using a standard class. Which seems to be what you are talking about. Any 20 level class would absolutely fail in doing this and if there are 'empty' levels then it is no longer a standard class. It is conceivalbe to do it via a prestige class since they are basically more powerful than standard classes, but this casues a whole new set of problems since prestige classes themselves are pourely optional and inserting a 'required' prestige class into the BRCS pretty much negates this optional thing.
UA is OGL so it can be used, but more importantly the UA bloodlines system was used as a guide and not an exact replication so it can very easily work in capturing the awnshegh transformation.
It is essential not to require anyone to have to use books other than the core 3 books (or SRD) in conjuncture with the BRCS. The UA bloodline based concept does not require this.Duane Eggert
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07-01-2004, 09:40 PM #17
At 10:30 PM 7/1/2004 +0200, irdeggman wrote:
>Again, Gary you`ve lost me.There hasn`t been a write up presented yet of
>an awnshegh that has exactly matched the 2nd ed versions.It is pretty much
>impossible to capture the true power and essence of an awnshegh using a
>standard class. Which seems to be what you are talking about.
Sheesh, man, you do need a vacation. I posted it weeks ago under the
thread called "Rhoubhe Manslayer" (odd that this thread came back to that
awnshegh...) in response to one of your posts. It`s in the birthright-l
archives in week 4 of April this year
(http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa...ight-l&P=R5083.)
There followed a discussion on the possibilities for transformations and
disadvantages, particularly an insanity disadvantage, which you
participated in. I`ve been referencing this class and various aspects of
it for quite a while now....
I don`t know if it _exactly_ matches the 2e versions, but I`ve yet to find
an awnshegh that can`t be portrayed using that character class, and
_exactly_ matching the 2e versions isn`t really the requirement. It just
needs to match the original BR themes of awnshegh transformation, not
replicate the 2e characters precisely. It`s open ended enough that new
things can be added without any particular trouble.
>Any 20 level class would absolutely fail in doing this and if there are
>`empty` levels then it is no longer a standard class.
I`ve been using one for about a year and a half and it seems to work just
fine.... Every awnshegh description I`ve posted (including the recent
conversion of the White Witch) has used it to develop the transformation
effects and other stats of the character description.
>It is essential not to require anyone to have to use books other than the
>core 3 books (or SRD) in conjuncture with the BRCS.
There can be a new class or three, though, correct? There is, after all,
entire character class descriptions for magicians and nobles in the
BRCS.... Having one for awnsheghlien and ersheghlien seems like a
worthwhile inclusion since they are at least as definitive of the campaign
setting as those other two classes.
>The UA bloodline based concept does not require this.
It does require explaining what amounts to a different rules set for the
purpose of the campaign setting. One wouldn`t have to have UA in order to
get the concept, but it is something that is culled from that book and
would make more sense if one saw the whole idea rather than just the BR
version of it. Nobody is going to have trouble understanding the idea of a
character class to portray transformation since that already exists in the
core rules.
Gary
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07-02-2004, 01:45 AM #18
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Originally posted by geeman@Jul 1 2004, 04:40 PM
At 10:30 PM 7/1/2004 +0200, irdeggman wrote:
>Again, Gary you`ve lost me.There hasn`t been a write up presented yet of
>an awnshegh that has exactly matched the 2nd ed versions.It is pretty much
>impossible to capture the true power and essence of an awnshegh using a
>standard class. Which seems to be what you are talking about.
Sheesh, man, you do need a vacation. I posted it weeks ago under the
thread called "Rhoubhe Manslayer" (odd that this thread came back to that
awnshegh...) in response to one of your posts. It`s in the birthright-l
archives in week 4 of April this year
(http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa...ight-l&P=R5083.)
There followed a discussion on the possibilities for transformations and
disadvantages, particularly an insanity disadvantage, which you
participated in. I`ve been referencing this class and various aspects of
it for quite a while now....
I don`t know if it _exactly_ matches the 2e versions, but I`ve yet to find
an awnshegh that can`t be portrayed using that character class, and
_exactly_ matching the 2e versions isn`t really the requirement. It just
needs to match the original BR themes of awnshegh transformation, not
replicate the 2e characters precisely. It`s open ended enough that new
things can be added without any particular trouble.
Duane Eggert
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07-02-2004, 04:00 PM #19
At 03:45 AM 7/2/2004 +0200, irdeggman wrote:
>And it is intimately tied into your BP system for bloodlines and blood
>abilites. If one doesn`t use that then the class doesn`t work.
I know, I know. Heaven forbid anyone should want to go with a better way
of portraying bloodline and a better way of portraying awnsheghlien at the
same time....
In any case, there was some discussion of how to remove the BP system from
the class. It`ll a few paragraphs, I`d guess, so I should be able to crank
it out pretty quickly. However, I`ll be out of my office until late
tonight, and there are festivities this weekend what with the 4th of July
and all.... (I`m planning on celebrating Independence by drinking a lot
British ale.)
Gary
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