What is historical base for Brechts?

[Beruin]

On the whole I believe the Dutch are more fitting as a historical source for the Brechts than the Hanseatic League (HL). The HL was not really a union of states, but a loose association of trading cities. When they worked together they could be quite powerful (once won a war against the Kingdom of Denmark), but more often than not they couldn`t agree on political issues or squabbled among themselves. These cities never ruled a great amount of territory, if at all but controlled a large part of the trade in Northern Europe.



In Brechtür, the guilders are important, but their nations are still ruled by nobles. The cities of the HL, in contrast, were generally governed by a Mayor and a city council made up of the most influential citizens (rich traders). The Netherlands were officially a republic, but nobles nevertheless remained influential. The Dutch also won their indepence in a war against a Southern Empire (Spain), another similarity to the Brecht who won their indepence against Anuire.



Two additional notes:



irdeggman wrote:

>>When I (and I believe most non-history saavy people or those from the region in question) think of germans we don`t think of sea faring merchants, we think in terms of technologically saavy conquest oriented cultures.<<



I guess the notion of Germans as a militaristic, technology-orientated culture is based on late 19th and early 20th Century Germany, from about 1870-1945. This makes this stereotype kind of useless, if you do not want to re-create WW1 or WW2 in Cerilia.





For those interested in the HL, try to find a copy of the computer game Patrician 2. That`s a German game, originally titled Patrizier2, a complicated trade simulation, that captures the flair of the Hanseatic League quite well. The english version was once reviewed in the comic Knights of the Dinner Table, but maybe hard to find

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by Beruin@Jun 27 2004, 05:40 PM
Two additional notes:



irdeggman wrote:

>>When I (and I believe most non-history saavy people or those from the region in question) think of germans we don`t think of sea faring merchants, we think in terms of technologically saavy conquest oriented cultures.<<



I guess the notion of Germans as a militaristic, technology-orientated culture is based on late 19th and early 20th Century Germany, from about 1870-1945. This makes this stereotype kind of useless, if you do not want to re-create WW1 or WW2 in Cerilia.





For those interested in the HL, try to find a copy of the computer game Patrician 2. That`s a German game, originally titled Patrizier2, a complicated trade simulation, that captures the flair of the Hanseatic League quite well. The english version was once reviewed in the comic Knights of the Dinner Table, but maybe hard to find

It might be useless, but as I was pointing out since we are dealing with stereo types here, it is what the unenlightened masses have for a preconception of german history. Like picturing mongels with the &#39;fu-manchu&#39; mustaches.

Again refering to hard-to-find games (from Germany) and articles as points of reference also aids in my argument of how difficult it would be for the masses to grasp the concept of the Hanseatic league period of history.

[the Falcon]

From looking at the origins of the authors of several posts on this topic, I get the impression that posters who are located in either the Netherlands or Germany generally both seem to be in favor of modelling the Brechts after the Dutch.
Isn&#39;t that telling?

[Beruin]

the Falcon wrote:

>>From looking at the origins of the authors of several posts on this topic, I get the impression that posters who are located in either the Netherlands or Germany generally both seem to be in favor of modelling the Brechts after the Dutch.Isn`t that telling? :)<<



As in soccer, the Netherlands seem to be more successful than Germany this year (BtW, congrats and good luck for the rest of the European championship). But let`s wait for 2006. Maybe by then, the unenlightened masses know enough about the Hanseatic League to make it a valid rolemodel and Germany will fare better in the world championship ;-)



irdeggman wrote:

>>It might be useless, but as I was pointing out since we are dealing with stereo types here, it is what the unenlightened masses have for a preconception of german history. Like picturing mongels with the `fu-manchu` mustaches.Again refering to hard-to-find games (from Germany) and articles as points of reference also aids in my argument of how difficult it would be for the masses to grasp the concept of the Hanseatic league period of history.<<



Well, the rest of my post supported your argument, but as a German I couldn`t resist commenting on your German stereotype. So any beardless Mongols on this list? ;-)

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by Beruin@Jun 28 2004, 10:10 AM
Well, the rest of my post supported your argument, but as a German I couldn`t resist commenting on your German stereotype. So any beardless Mongols on this list? ;-)

Yup. That&#39;s why I&#39;ve always insisted it was a stereo type and no where near an accurate portrayal.


Shoot there are probably not that many people that could reasonable discuss the riots and burning of Detroit (MI, USA) in 1967 and why when the riots and fires of 1968 spread throughout the rest of the US that Detroit did not have any in that year (or none that amounted to anything).

Local history yields much greater detail and knowledge.

[ConjurerDragon]

Christoph Tiemann schrieb:



>the Falcon wrote:

> >>From looking at the origins of the authors of several posts on this topic, I get the impression that posters who are located in either the Netherlands or Germany generally both seem to be in favor of modelling the Brechts after the Dutch.Isn`t that telling? :)<<

>

>As in soccer, the Netherlands seem to be more successful than Germany this year (BtW, congrats and good luck for the rest of the European championship).

>

Grml... :-(

Good that I don´t care about Fußball in the least, lest I might be upset...



> But let`s wait for 2006. Maybe by then, the unenlightened masses know enough about the Hanseatic League to make it a valid rolemodel and Germany will fare better in the world championship ;-)

>

Being german myself I want to point out that the Hanseatic league is not

equivalent to germany or consists only of german cities - certainly

Hamburg or Bremen were important but many cities outside (even the then

larger) germany were members. Riga to name one as far as I remember. So

even the original note of "german traders" is not the same as using the

Hanseatic league as model for the Brecht. In that light even the dutch

could be seen as "german traders" as they were part of the holy roman

empire of german nation - Mmm, in that light germany might still win the

championship ;-)

bye

Michael

************************************



>irdeggman wrote:

>

>

>>>It might be useless, but as I was pointing out since we are dealing with stereo types here, it is what the unenlightened masses have for a preconception of german history. Like picturing mongels with the `fu-manchu` mustaches.Again refering to hard-to-find games (from Germany) and articles as points of reference also aids in my argument of how difficult it would be for the masses to grasp the concept of the Hanseatic league period of history.<<

>>>

>>>

>Well, the rest of my post supported your argument, but as a German I couldn`t resist commenting on your German stereotype. So any beardless Mongols on this list? ;-)

>

[Ariadne]

I think, it&#39;s based on Germany (look at the names ), but I don&#39;t see a problem to base it on Holand too...

[ConjurerDragon]

Ariadne schrieb:



>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

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>

> Ariadne wrote:

> I think, it`s based on Germany (look at the names ;) ), but I don`t see a problem to base it on Holand too...

>

>

Not Holand but the Netherlands. Holland is only one of their provinces.

And the names: Garmisch of Partenkirchen the Magician - Argh... If one

knows that Garmisch-Partenkirchen is a german town...

bye

Michael

[Sir Tiamat]

I would go for a combination of Dutch and Venice during their periods of supremacy. Both where Republics, both seafaring Nations, both had powerfull merchands and Nobles, and both have build their empires on trade.

Both lacked a military force on land because of defendible rivers and swamps. Like the Brecht have Mountains

For language look at the Dutch and for (fencing) culture at venice.

The German Hanseatic leage consisted of cities in the Netherlands and Belgium as well as in Germany. And there are few other reasons for Germany. Spain and Portugal where powerfull seafaring Nations, yet they where monarchies.

I think the republic is one of the most striking aspects of Brecht culture. More so if one bears in mind that republics where quite rare in medieval and renaisance Europe.

[the Falcon]

Originally posted by Sir Tiamat@Jul 6 2004, 08:37 PM
I would go for a combination of Dutch and Venice during their periods of supremacy. Both where Republics, both seafaring Nations, both had powerfull merchands and Nobles, and both have build their empires on trade.

Both lacked a military force on land because of defendible rivers and swamps. Like the Brecht have Mountains

And now both are in danger of being flooded.

Oh, and you should see the local church tower here: it&#39;s almost as crooked as the tower of Pisa. Though I suppose that hasn&#39;t got anything to do directly with Venice. :P