Awnshegh Build

[irdeggman]

Here is the combined UA bloodline and Awnsheglien Class proposals.


Gary had a few things that he wanted to bring up for discussion on the Class proposal:

1) It has the sudden transformation occuring when bloodtheft is done on an awnshegh - should this be on any scion of Azrai instead?

2) The proposal doesn't address whether it should be harder to resist the change based on the scion's bloodline strength (score and level (minor/major/great/true). Should these be factors?

Gary fill in if I messed something up here or left a question off.


Here is the pdf version:

[irdeggman]

Here is the Word version:

[Don E]

Two quick comments to option 2:
- For DR of such a low magnitude, wouldn't it be more reasonable to allow it for the non-bypass type? E.g. 1/-, 2/-, etc. Otherwise I think the damage reduction should be increased slightly. A damage reduction 3/silver is hardly worth 3 transformation if compared powerwise to other, e.g. +6 natural armour.
- How many times per day can the Spell Like Abilities be used? Unlimited or something like 3 times per day?

[geeman]

Sorry it`s taken me a few days to get back to you on this... been busy.



At 04:18 AM 7/14/2004 +0200, Don E wrote:



>Two quick comments to option 2:- For DR of such a low magnitude, wouldn`t

>it be more reasonable to allow it for the non-bypass type? E.g. 1/-, 2/-,

>etc. Otherwise I think the damage reduction should be increased slightly.

>A damage reduction 3/silver is hardly worth 3 transformation if compared

>powerwise to other, e.g. +6 natural armour.



Yeah, I think you`re right. Originally, it was 1/--, 2/--, etc. One of

the folks in my group pointed out that one could get a high DR much more

quickly than, say, the barbarian class provides that special ability, so I

"toned it down" to include a vulnerability. One could get transformations

a bit faster using that original (BP) system, so it`s probably a matter of

the power of the transformation getting smudged in the translation.



>How many times per day can the Spell Like Abilities be used? Unlimited or

>something like 3 times per day?



It should be limited to a particular number of times/day. How about if it

starts out at 1/day and can be improved to 3/day by a second transformation?



Must sleep....

Gary

[irdeggman]

Any one else have any comments here? Surely people have an opinion on which method is the 'preferrred' one. We need to narrow this down for fiftyone and his write ups for the d20 Atlas. If I don't see any comments soon, I'll jsut post it for a vote on which way to proceed and then we can narrow the details down accordingly - we just can't proceed in two directions at the same time on this issue.

[RaspK_FOG]

Even though I generally do not like the way UA handles bloodlines, it seems to me that this is the cleanest method hereby presented.

[the Falcon]

Comments on Option 1.

If the scion
has one such blood ability, shift the appropriate
column to the right by one. If the scion has more
than one, then shift it by two. The signature blood
abilities are: death touch, fear, invulnerability, major
regeneration, regeneration, touch of decay and wither
touch.

Okay, I think that little piece of text is totally unclear; "shift the … column to the right"—what does it mean? I do understand what you mean by the example that follows, but the text above really doesn't make any sense to me.

If the scion doesn’t take awnshegh levels as a class
level before exceeding the character level indicated
on the table, he gains no further awnshegh traits and
must take a 20% penalty on all future XP gains.

The beginning of that sentence seems a bit strangely phrased to me. How about this alternative:
"If the scion doesn't talk the indicated awnshegh level (instead of a class level) before exceeding ..."? Should you balk at using the word "indicated" more than once per sentence, I'm sure you can think of something better. ^_^

I like the way you've classified the physical changes into first, second and third order. That was really something that needed to be done to be able to provide any kind of structure to the transformation. Good job.

Attacks are on the order of a claw/claw
attack that does 1d6/1d6 damage or a ranged natural
attack, like spitting, that affects and individual for
1d6 or a group for 1d4 damage.

Typo.

For example the Spider’s Animal Affinity
blood ability is normally applicable to serpents
(Azrai’s totem animal) but his physical
transformation had changed his totem animal to
spiders instead.

You talk of the Spider as if he's history. I think it would sound better to say that "his physical transformation has changed his totem animal to spiders".

Third order changes: are even more pronounced.

Typo.

The typical physical attack increases in dice size
from the second order change.

I think the D&D convention is that the singular form of dice is die and not dice, which some people seem to prefer.

Who gets to choose which traits the awnshegh gains? The DM or the player?

Gaining a +1 to an ability score, the same
ability score may be increased more than
once with subsequent uses of this trait

If the player gets to choose, this is fine by my, but otherwise if the DM chooses, I think this should be a +2 bonus, in the spirit of 3rd edition.

Major: major traits are things on the order of:

I thought the proper phrase was "in the order of"?? :huh:

A class-like ability normally available at up
to 5th level of the applicable class.

Which class is that?? :blink:

Increasing the power of an existing blood
ability so that its effects are roughly 50%
more

DM's fiat, I suppose?

Gaining a template with all of its benefits
and restrictions, for example the Undead
template.

The Undead template? Is that from the BRCS? Or is it from some WotC source book? I've never heard of it.

The awnshegh may choose an appropriate
disadvantage, when picking up an awnsheghlien
level, in exchange for an equivalent level trait.

So, he may choose, huh? Does that mean you don't have to choose one when you gain an awnshegh level? What is an "equivalent level trait", anyways?

Movement is
reduced by 10'.

The current D&D convention is to use ft. and not ' when indicating a distance in feet.

Ability score reduction. Some affliction reduces
an ability score by 2, except for Con.

Typo, and only some afflictions reduce an ability score by 2? That's not very clear.

The awnshegh suffers from some
sort of mental issues, e.g., obsession, delusion,
bi-polar type of disorders.

Make that "or bipolar disorder".

Effects vary based on
the type of illness and can be along the level of
acting last in the initiative order …

Acting last in initiative order? I get a very 2nd edition feel from that. Not even zombies do that in v3.5.

The awnshegh is sensitive to
light and is considered dazzled when in daylight
conditions only suffering a -2 penalty instead of
the normal -1.

Strange, counterintuitive use of the word "only" here. "Thank heavens he's not injured, but only dead." Get my drift? ^_^

Heightened mental illness. The awnshegh
suffers a more heightened type of mental illness.

I don't know about you, but the word "heightened" has positive connotations with me. I would suggest using the word "severe" instead.

Acute mental illness.

The word "acute" can also imply that it doesn't last that long or that it has a sudden onset, as opposed to chronic, especially in this context. I would try to avoid ambiguity here and opt for something else. Same goes of course for "acute susceptibility to material type", etc.

I'll comment on Option 2 later, since I haven't really had the time to read it yet.

[the Falcon]

You know what? Option 2 is just, well, too much. Five pages of dense text as opposed to the just three pages of loose text of Option 1. It's too … bulky, I suppose. I must admit I haven't really read it all that well yet—I just glanced it over—but already it just seems unwieldy and way too detailed.

I love the creative use of quasi-celtic, though. "Unshegh"? Thumbs up for that. ^_^

Anyhoo, I don't feel that I would ever be able to use Option 2 in practice, simply because of its sheer volume.

Therefore, I vote for Option 1.

[irdeggman]

Thanks for the concise and specfic comments Falcon.

QUOTE
If the scion
has one such blood ability, shift the appropriate
column to the right by one. If the scion has more
than one, then shift it by two. The signature blood
abilities are: death touch, fear, invulnerability, major
regeneration, regeneration, touch of decay and wither
touch.

Okay, I think that little piece of text is totally unclear; "shift the … column to the right"—what does it mean? I do understand what you mean by the example that follows, but the text above really doesn't make any sense to me.

That is why I added the example, I couldn't figure a ready way to word it concisely - hence the example. I like examples anyway, they usually (if done properly) show what is intended by the text.

If you can come up with better words for the text, I'd appreciate it.

QUOTE
If the scion doesn’t take awnshegh levels as a class
level before exceeding the character level indicated
on the table, he gains no further awnshegh traits and
must take a 20% penalty on all future XP gains.

The beginning of that sentence seems a bit strangely phrased to me. How about this alternative:
"If the scion doesn't talk the indicated awnshegh level (instead of a class level) before exceeding ..."? Should you balk at using the word "indicated" more than once per sentence, I'm sure you can think of something better.

I'll try to follow the UA wording closer, it is better. "If the scion does not take an awnshegh level before reaching the character level indicated on the table, . . . ."

Who gets to choose which traits the awnshegh gains? The DM or the player?

I need to insert some text about defining the changes and personality types. This process should be worked out between the player and DM. That is assuming a DM will allow a player to play an awnshegh. Again, it is up to the DM if he/she allows this - but the transformation process should be worked out between the two since the player is role-playing the character and that has a lot to do with the way the transformations occur.

QUOTE
Gaining a +1 to an ability score, the same
ability score may be increased more than
once with subsequent uses of this trait

If the player gets to choose, this is fine by my, but otherwise if the DM chooses, I think this should be a +2 bonus, in the spirit of 3rd edition.

A +2 happening as frequently as the minor traits occur adds up too quickly. The UA bloodline system grants ability increase in increments of +1 for this reason. A +2 increase is a sudden increase and by itself renders a +1 LA. Part of the logic of this transformation process is to make it gradual and to avoid as many sudden LA as possible.


{quote]QUOTE
Major: major traits are things on the order of:

I thought the proper phrase was "in the order of"?? [/quote]

On the order of sounds more appropriate than in the order of which indicates a sequence not a level of equivalency.

QUOTE
A class-like ability normally available at up
to 5th level of the applicable class.

Which class is that??

Any class. This is choosing a class ability that is gained, for example sneak attack (rogue) or DR (barbarian), etc. This is also intended to reflect the type of ability for example a rogue gets a sneak attack of +1d6 at 1st level, this increases to +2d6 at 3rd, 3d6 at 5th and4d6 at 7th and so on. Probably need to reword this for clarity though.

QUOTE
Increasing the power of an existing blood
ability so that its effects are roughly 50%
more

DM's fiat, I suppose?

See above, it needs to be worked out between the DM and player since this is a jointly built transformation.

QUOTE
Gaining a template with all of its benefits
and restrictions, for example the Undead
template.

The Undead template? Is that from the BRCS? Or is it from some WotC source book? I've never heard of it.

Yikes. WotC changed undead from a template (3.0) to a type (3.5). I have to work on this one some.


[quote]QUOTE
The awnshegh may choose an appropriate
disadvantage, when picking up an awnsheghlien
level, in exchange for an equivalent level trait.

So, he may choose, huh? Does that mean you don't have to choose one when you gain an awnshegh level? What is an "equivalent level trait", anyways?[quote]

Yes the use of disadvantages is purely optional in this system. Not all of the listed awnsheghlien have disadvantages, while some have very strong ones. Equivalent level trait is just what it says. Disadvantages are minor/major/great and traits are minor/major/great.

QUOTE
Ability score reduction. Some affliction reduces
an ability score by 2, except for Con.

Typo, and only some afflictions reduce an ability score by 2? That's not very clear.

What typo? I don't understand. The point was to be open on the type of afflication that casues the ability score reduction (again part of the transformation process), it could be poor internal organ development, off sized limbs, etc.

QUOTE
Effects vary based on
the type of illness and can be along the level of
acting last in the initiative order …

Acting last in initiative order? I get a very 2nd edition feel from that. Not even zombies do that in v3.5.

Yeah I thought about that. UA lists a disadvantage with a -6 to initiative. That is probably the best example to use.

QUOTE
Heightened mental illness. The awnshegh
suffers a more heightened type of mental illness.

I don't know about you, but the word "heightened" has positive connotations with me. I would suggest using the word "severe" instead.


QUOTE
Acute mental illness.

The word "acute" can also imply that it doesn't last that long or that it has a sudden onset, as opposed to chronic, especially in this context. I would try to avoid ambiguity here and opt for something else. Same goes of course for "acute susceptibility to material type", etc.

Hmm how about severe and drastic (still not sure about that word though)?



Again thanks for ths specific comments. Comments are real useful when phrased that way as opposed to the "let's try something else" etc.

[irdeggman]

I'm closing this thread, for now at least. I'd rather us focus on choosing which method to work on (see new poll).

Once that is decided then we'll get down to specifics.