Magician Class

[irdeggman]

I agree with Bearcat on making the abilities feats. IMO we make them special abilities locked to the path (similar to the revised BR noble). The special abilities would include some feats (I'd say meta-magic feats for the chosen path only (i.e., Ill or div schools only), some that are not feats but rather other abilities that aren't available to other classes which would make the class more unique. I don't think I'd add in item creation feats as being bonus feats for the class though - makes them too much like wizards.

Pretty much any way we cut it the clas will suffer from a lack of available spells on the high end so we need to beef up their higher level abilities to make up for it. Originality is what counts here.

Also we do not need to stick with the wizard spell progression table, we can make up a new one to fit the distribution of spell. Greater emphasis on lower level spells than higher level ones or just change the level of the spells to match a better overall progression. Just some thoughts.

A couple of comments on other posts here:

Only wizards can specialize in a school of magic (sorcerers cannot).

IMO giving magicians access to 3rd level spells (overall) is a real bad idea. Regardless of how lesser/greater magic is/was defined a fireball (3rd level wizard spell) is definitely greater magic, IMO.

[Osprey]

IMO giving magicians access to 3rd level spells (overall) is a real bad idea. Regardless of how lesser/greater magic is/was defined a fireball (3rd level wizard spell) is definitely greater magic, IMO.

Couldn't agree more. 3rd level is where wizard spells really "hit the big time." Haste, Slow, Dispel, Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Displacement...here's the real core of the combat mage's arsenal, where the big fireworks begin.

For a Magician spell list, it seems like Abjuration would be one of the better choices for a possible 3rd school, maybe Conjuration (though not necessary with Shadow Magic). Keep in mind, too, with Shadow Magic spells there actually IS a good reason to have many higher-level slots: it will let them cast shadow-based conjuration and evocation spells of lower level, so having these types of spells (Shades, Shadow Conjuration, etc.) in multiple will be really important for a higher-level magician in general.

However, I'm curious to see if a good class can be made that is pretty strict to the 2e rule of Illusion and Divination only after 2nd level of spells. Hmmm...

[geeman]

At 03:21 PM 6/26/2004 +0200, Osprey wrote:



>------------ QUOTE ----------

>IMO giving magicians access to 3rd level spells (overall) is a real bad

>idea. Regardless of how lesser/greater magic is/was defined a fireball

>(3rd level wizard spell) is definitely greater magic, IMO.

>-----------------------------

>

>Couldn`t agree more. 3rd level is where wizard spells really "hit the big

>time." Haste, Slow, Dispel, Fireball, Lightning Bolt,

>Displacement...here`s the real core of the combat mage`s arsenal, where

>the big fireworks begin. For a Magician spell list, it seems like

>Abjuration would be one of the better choices for a possible 3rd school,

>maybe Conjuration (though not necessary with Shadow Magic). Keep in mind,

>too, with Shadow Magic spells there actually IS a good reason to have many

>higher-level slots: it will let them cast shadow-based conjuration and

>evocation spells of lower level, so having these types of spells (Shades,

>Shadow Conjuration, etc.) in multiple will be really important for a

>higher-level magician in general.However, I`m curious to see if a good

>class can be made that is pretty strict to the 2e rule of Illusion and

>Divination only after 2nd level of spells. Hmmm...



At the risk of chiming in with a "me too" post... me too. I`d extend the

situation a bit as well. I find magicians using healing magics to be as

repugnant to the class as "true magic."



As has been pointed out, however, there really isn`t enough illusion and

divination spells (charm too if one is going to consider bards) in the D&D

repertoire to make for a very good character class if one is going to allow

them access to only those spells, so one can either increase their spell

list "in system" by allowing them access to other spells or come up with a

few dozen more spells to round them out. Personally, I`d prefer the latter

to the former, but that solution does represent a substantial amount of

additional work and brainstorming for what is as often as not a "NPC class"

for the setting.



Gary

[Osprey]

One spell I've wanted to introduce is Competence, though this would be a lower level skill, giving a competence skill bonus to a single target that increases with caster level. Mass Competence could also make for a higher level version.

I really liked Magicians in the BRCS having enhancement-type spells like Greater Magic Weapons, Mass Magic Weapons, First Strike, etc. This does lead to the problem of then officially saying, "Yes, magicians can make magic weapons with Craft magic Arms and Armor." But perhaps this is a worthwhile trade-off, not sure on that yet though. But given the commonality of clerics and their potential for artificing, it's not like magic item production is the sole province of the blooded anyways. Also, true mages will still be capable of creating a much greater diversity of items thanks to their greater spell selection, thus they remain superior artificers.

I think coming up with a set of unique magician spells is pretty much necessary if the magician is to be 'sold' as a PC class. If it's just presented as an NPC class, then it's fine and fitting for their spell lists and capabilities to be limited and inferior to a PC class. Otherwise, they need some cool stuff of their own.

SO...here's a call to the BR community. Who's got some good Magician spells to add to their lists, especially higher-level spells? Let's put our brains together and storm the bastions of Lesser Magic!

Whaddya' got?

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by Osprey@Jun 27 2004, 10:08 AM
This does lead to the problem of then officially saying, "Yes, magicians can make magic weapons with Craft magic Arms and Armor." But perhaps this is a worthwhile trade-off, not sure on that yet though. But given the commonality of clerics and their potential for artificing, it's not like magic item production is the sole province of the blooded anyways. Also, true mages will still be capable of creating a much greater diversity of items thanks to their greater spell selection, thus they remain superior artificers.

Any spellcaster who takes the craft arms and armor item dreation feat can make magic weapons. There is no spell prereq for that item creation only a caster level. So even rangers and paladins could create magic weapons.

This is something that is core to 3.5 and hence shouldn't be toyed with, IMO. This becomes limited by how bonus feats are given, e.g., wizards gain bonus feats that can be used for any metamagic or item creation feat.

[geeman]

At 06:48 PM 6/27/2004 +0200, irdeggman wrote:



>Any spellcaster who takes the craft arms and armor item dreation feat can

>make magic weapons. There is no spell prereq for that item creation only

>a caster level. So even rangers and paladins could create magic

>weapons.This is something that is core to 3.5 and hence shouldn`t be toyed

>with, IMO. This becomes limited by how bonus feats are given, e.g.,

>wizards gain bonus feats that can be used for any metamagic or item

>creation feat.



Allowing any spellcaster to craft arms and armor really mucks about with

one of the fundamental themes of the BR setting; that it is low magic. As

you note, 3e/3.5 allows any spellcaster to create such items, which is

actually an even greater number of characters than would be able to create

magic items in 2e if magicians had had the same spells (Permanency) as

wizards, so logically the transition from 2e BR to 3e BR would do away with

any low magic concept in the campaign--if one is going to have the campaign

conditions in any way connected to the game mechanics, that is.



In this case, the only feat that needs to be addressed is Craft Magic Arms

and Armor. The situation is very easy to fix in order to maintain

consistency with the original, low-magic theme. The item creation feat

just needs to have an additional prereq added: "Ability to cast true magic

or divine magic." The rest of the feat description can be included or it

might just refer to the PHB.



Gary

[geeman]

At 05:08 PM 6/27/2004 +0200, Osprey wrote:



>Who`s got some good Magician spells to add to their lists, especially

>higher-level spells? Let`s put our brains together and storm the bastions

>of Lesser Magic! :D Whaddya` got?



I haven`t any specific spell write ups, but I would make a couple of

suggestions regarding what kinds of things magicians should be able to do.



1. Spells related to the Shadow World. Magicians should be able to do

things like pierce the veil into the SW and possibly draw forth

creatures/energies from that plane. Personally, I think shadow magics is a

much better direction to go for BR magicians than healing spells if one is

going to add a category of spells.



2. More specifically powered divination and illusion spells. Where there

are metamagic feats to improve various spell effects, results, etc. many

such empowered spells could simply exist in the magician`s

repertoire. Aside from rounding out the spell list for magicians, spells

based on existing magics would require a minimum of spell description text.



3. "Mundane" magics. Where wizards/sorcerers with access to true magic

concentrate on the more powerful and dramatic spells, magicians might be

more like the "technicians" of BR magic. Their spells, therefore, should

be geared towards more common, everyday occurrences. Even magicians have

to make a living, so their spell effects might be things that would

entertain, communicate over distances, predict the sex of babies, etc. On

a more particular basis, magicians would be able to use divinatory magics

to locate things ranging from the location to dig a well, to the place

where a silver vein is hidden.



4. From the political level, there are several kinds of things that might

be apt for a court magician (and, therefore, importan to a BR update.) For

instance, spells that do things like transcribe a conversation, loudly

announce proclamations from a tower, spy upon other regents and protect one

from the magical spying of others, detect lies, traps, poisons, etc. would

all be very appropriate.



Gary

[Birthright-L]

Has anyone considered that the Magician class might be a Rogue class? One

with sligt mystical abilities? Alternatly the nature of Birthright may allow

non blooded to be wizards--but prevent them from surpassing level 3 in

magic, instead forcing tem to learn other skills/class?

[irdeggman]

Limiting magic weapon creation is easily done by increasing the market value of the items (Complete Warrior suggests doubling or tripling the value) this reduces the amount made. Without rewriting the core rules.

I'm not really supportive of creating the number of new magician spells necessary to make the class on an even keel with wizards as far as number of spells. I'd rather have the class make up for higher level spells with class abilities instead.

The class is already a roguish type of spell caster. See the number of skill points (4 + Int mod) and skills and hit die (d6) from the latest class write up.

Non-blooded wizards? Why? It just sort of makes the magician class not make sense that way. Forcing them to have to change classes might well impose the multi-class penalties. Most everyone knows that while multi-class characters are more adaptable they are less powerful, especially the spellcasting ones.

[destowe]

I would like to see Magicians at least be able to scribe scrolls and brew potions.

These are fairly close to those 'trinkets' or 'amulets' of really low power that you can buy/rewarded from a hedge-wizard in fairy tales. As they are single-use they should not upset the balance to much.