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  1. #1
    James Ruhland
    Guest

    Concept of Diesmer and the Bloo

    >
    > Here's a thought. How do we know there was only ONE Diesmaar? I mean,
    > greater gods can take on some ungodly number of avatars (20+ I think),
    > so what's to say that as Azrai spread out from Aduria, that he only went
    > in one direction?
    >
    Well, because it was the Gods themselves, not their Avatars, that gave up
    their power at Diesmaar. The death of a mere avatar, is, to a greater god,
    a inconvienience at worst. Not a matter of divine life or death.

  2. #2
    Taragin@sprintmail.co
    Guest

    Concept of Diesmer and the Bloo

    Here's a thought. How do we know there was only ONE Diesmaar? I mean,
    greater gods can take on some ungodly number of avatars (20+ I think),
    so what's to say that as Azrai spread out from Aduria, that he only went
    in one direction?
    For all we know the deities in other parts of the world took on avatar
    form in their regions to battle the encroaching Shadow, and so now
    thanks to things like the Battle of Heilikae Desert and the Battle of
    the Frostkist Sea, the whole of Æbrynis has bloodlines.

    - --
    Alexander

    "The vengance of Heaven is slow but sure…" -- Kunou Tatewaki.

  3. #3
    Tim Nutting
    Guest

    Concept of Diesmer and the Bloo

    I too have been thinking quite a bit about the pre Shadow War period of
    Aduria's history and what has become of those lands. I've been trying to
    cobble together an idea of what the religious states were like in this time
    and what the politics and peoples might have been like.

    In drooling over the relics in the Book of Priestcraft I stumbled over the
    Viper's Eye. This is perhaps the single most cryptic and rather confusing
    item I've ever seen for BR. It opens with a description of Azrai before
    the War of Shadow and says that he was not allways the incarnation of
    terror and evil that he later became, and that he was a god of knowledge.
    The description paints a picture of a being of pure buty, but vain. I
    imagine that he revelled in knowledge as a means to gain power, and those
    that followed him sought those goals as opposed to Vorynn's path of
    peaceful magic and moonlight. I also imagine that the Adurians were
    Azrai's people, just as the Anuireans were Anduirias' and the Masetians
    were Masella's, etc.

    Jump ahead to Deismar and we find that Azrai has finally found those people
    who fled. This says one crucial thing, the gods of old were neither
    omniescient nor omnipotent. Also, I have never seen in any other D&D game
    where gods have physically manifested on the Prime Material. According to
    everything I know, this is not possible, and rather frowned upon by Planar
    powers. So we have a section that is completely outside the standard AD&D
    millieu and an opportunity unmatched. Either Aebynis doesn't follow the
    rules of the rest of the cosmos, or we just had an "artifact moment".

    Now, at Deismar Azrai had pinned the Cerilians in a massive pincer, they
    were outnumbered and outmached so horribly that only the self-sacrifice of
    5 Gods could save them. The Vos and the Elves could not have done that
    alone, so in my mind the Adurians were there, and in force. Also, assuming
    that a god's power is directly tied to the number and strength of his/her
    worshippers, it seems to me that Azrai's base of worship was absolutely
    HUGE. He had the power to confront 5 gods at once. If he might have
    dispatched 3 in mass combat that says something, but that it took all his
    bretheren to match and beat him....

    Lets backtrack a long ways now. Azrai has chased his bretheren out of
    Aduria and captured as many of the tribal kinsmen as he could. Obviously
    not everyone made it to Cerilia, and of those that didn't, not all of them
    could have died. The Adurians, as Azrai's folk, are the chosen and the
    favored on the continent of Aduria. Any of the five tribes left could
    perhaps have equal footing, but they would most likely be slave peoples.
    The Adurians were also of sufficient strenth to drive off ALL five tribes.
    This means they dominated the continent in sheer numbers. Azrai values
    knowledge (IMO) as a means to gain power, so the people of Aduria are well
    learned and technologically advanced. Perhaps the empires of Aduria were
    like unto the Age of Legends in Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time, in fact I
    can easily see them so, filled with all forms of wonderful magic and
    devices created by Azrai's priesthood. But also these lands were dominated
    by the priesthood or perhaps the noble caste. After all evil and vanity
    seek the betterment of self over others, and I can hardly see Azrai the
    Vain, the Beautiful, as caring much if a few thousand peasants got
    squished.

    Now the years turn into centuries as the Adurians solidify their power base
    on a continent not populated by monsters really (why else would Cerilia be
    called "The Land of Monsters" in the Atlas of Cerilia) and not choked with
    demi-humans. (Elves didn't seem to be a problem until the humans landed on
    Cerilia). I can see this perios as a sort of Golden Age for the Adurians,
    where Azrai's blessings run rich. Slowly the mood changes as the Vain One
    becomes more obsessed with power. It isn't enough now that he holds an
    entire continent and outnumbers his bretherens children, he must take them
    away too.

    So he makes the Viper's Eye for Atar of the Vos. Atar becomes the first of
    the Lost. Here is another piece to support that the gods of old were not
    all knowing/powerful. Azrai is able to hide his influence for Vorynn and
    sneak around on Cerilia. Not something an avatar is normally capable of.
    They fairly reek of divine essences and power, and should have been
    eminently visible. Azrai also had guts. Of all the old gods, Vorynn is
    his antithesis at this point. Knowledge for the betterment of others.
    Vorynn probably knew Azrai best of all.

    As a side note, I think Atar is something of a special case. He and the
    other Lost are unique in the AD&D millieu, and rather outside the rules.
    The Viper's Eye description talks of how Azrai lured Atar into working dark
    arts and magic, but not the "magic of elves" which was "unsuitable for
    humans". Azrai invents a new form of magic to let these humans of his use,
    and it isn't what we have in the players handbook because //that// is the
    "magic of elves" - True Magic. Atar wields magic of Shadow and Death, and
    becomes the first Sorcerer (actual word used) as opposed to Mage of Wizard
    or Magician. I think this might mean something. I'm going to hit more on
    this in another post however.

    Azrai slowly undermines Vorynn and gains the Vos, all the while planting
    the seed of hatred in the elves and we now have the basis of Diesmar. The
    Vos begin chewing through everything the other Cerilians can must at the
    same time as the elves who suddenly come boiling out of the woods to
    slaughter humans everywhere. The Shadow War has just begun. The Cerilians
    are driven to Mount Deismar (obviously named something different at this
    time as Deismar is Deis Mar - God's Death) At Deismar the Cerilians are
    trapped in the biggest strategic pincer ever desinged in the genre of
    fantasy literature. An entire assembly of nations is caught between two
    nations on one side and the entire might of the Adurian war machine on the
    other.

    Deismar ensues and the events that happen are recorded in the Atlas of
    Cerilia. Unfortunately Dossiere's Atlas becomes once again one-sided and
    focusses solely on the Cerilians after Deismar. The Royal Chaimberlain
    says nothing of the rest of the world.

    Here I insert my dissension again. I think that the people of Aduria all
    have their fair share of blooded folk. The bloodlines went out according
    the the strength of one's conviction with a deity, and the largest
    gathering of evil folks was the Adurians. Hence, Azrai's tremendous powers
    are siphoned off into the leaders of the Adurians who now retreat back.

    So what happens in Aduria over the next 1500 years?

    Aduria is a huge place, and I see it as having been dominated by the
    priesthood before the War of Shadow, and that selfsame priesthood, now
    without power of any kind (hrmm... poor templars) is not going to be very
    willing to give up ANY of their hoarded power. As Azrai was a god of
    knowledge and power, I think most of the priests began dabbling in the
    black arts, becoming magicians and the like. The truly lucky ones, those
    with bloodlines, now practice True Magic, or perhaps they have learned the
    secrets of the Lost. In fact, perhaps some of Azrai's Lost survive to this
    point and assume rulership. These men and women, powerful all, are perhaps
    this lands variant of the Gorgon, just not quite so awesome, or perhaps
    moreso... no way to know, really.

    Over the next millenium and a half Aduria slides from the glorious Golden
    Age and into an age of broken empires and decadence. The Adurians are the
    top of the social ladder, with all the captured slaves and offspring of the
    5 tribes being their lesser citizens. There is still a pristhood of Azrai,
    but these deceivers are actually either Sorcerers (as per Atar) or are
    Wizards and they masquerade as priests, using their powers to pretend at a
    role they have no skill at. A peculiar thing now, without Azrai, the power
    to magically heal in the lands of Aduria is lost. Are there any priests of
    Kreisha and Bellinik here? doubtful, they were Cerilian heroes/villains,
    lessers by the standards of the Adurians.

    Aduria is now (IMO) a land of forgotten memories. Ruins of great wonders
    that were once easy to make are now scattered across the lands. Those with
    power rule, in more stark iron clad dominance that anywhere in Cerilia, and
    the Haves are not very likely to give up to the Have Nots. Any form of
    self government is going to be violently repressed. The land is a huge
    continet divided into several empires and kingdoms, all with their little
    "preists of Azrai" to guide them along.

    IMC I have devised the following. The Priesthood is made up of women, the
    Daughters of Azrai, very powerful Wizards and Sorceresses that guide their
    Kings. The Kings/Emperors are all male, but are trained in the black arts
    themselves. I have used the rules out of the PO: Spells and Magic and
    devised a variant mage that can cast spells of limited schools while in
    full plate armor and wielding a weapon. They can't stand up to a full
    mage, but your average fighter in a one on one with a noble of this land is
    going to be very hard pressed. Throw in a wide plethora of bloodlines
    devoted to Azrai in the bunch and you have the makings of a huge playground
    where evil abounds and life is cheap. Aduria is also so huge that if they
    actually decided to work together they could very well crush all of
    Cerilia.

    I have thrown one more mix into my campgain. I decided that Azrai didn't
    die. Now, in defense of self, I decided this before the Essence of Evil
    series was announced. In fact, I fought rather vehemently in my early days
    on the list with a few folks about whether or not Azrai was still alive
    (Sepsis probably remembers those wonderful arguments that got postsed -
    sorry) and I even got personal flame mail once or twice. I found a
    reference in "On Hallowed Ground" that listed the Dead Gods, and in a
    careful read of them, Azrai is NOT in the list of the Aebyrnis gods. In
    fact it says that the other gods gave their lives to stop him, not to kill
    him.

    IMC Azrai is horribly wounded and recovering in the deep south, in a place
    called the Womb of the World, the place where the gods were born. At the
    end of the series of epic quests I have in mind Azrai will have gained
    enough power to walk again on the planet and strike out immediately to lead
    his armies across the world, in physical form! The new gods swore to never
    again use their might as their progenitors did, and so cannot interfere.
    Howerver, Azrai will be weak enough to be defeatable by a powerful mortal
    once and for all time. Imagine the bloodtheft on that one!

  4. #4
    Daniel McSorley
    Guest

    Concept of Diesmer and the Bloo

    Wow! That was great! I'm now eagerly awaiting "another post" about the
    Sorcerors. This goes in the "saved stuff" folder for sure!
    Daniel McSorley
    mcsorley.1@osu.edu
    http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/~mcsorley/
    ICQ:5299865
    AIM:DanMcS

  5. #5
    darkstar
    Guest

    Concept of Diesmer and the Bloo

    MANTA wrote:
    >
    > My thoughts precisely.Couldn´t stop reading.

    Well my reply (rather large) is on its way.
    Much the same sort of stuff, but slightly differnet in a few places.

    - --
    Ian Hoskins

    e-Mail: hoss@box.net.au
    Homepage: http://darkstar.cyberserv.com
    ICQ: 2938300

  6. #6
    darkstar
    Guest

    Concept of Diesmer and the Bloo

    Tim Nutting wrote:
    >
    > I too have been thinking quite a bit about the pre Shadow War period of
    > Aduria's history and what has become of those lands. I've been trying to
    > cobble together an idea of what the religious states were like in this time
    > and what the politics and peoples might have been like.

    I am working on a history for Aduria too, as part of my now rather large
    Adurian Expansion.
    I will put in some bit in my reply here about this to compare them with
    your great ideas.


    > In drooling over the relics in the Book of Priestcraft I stumbled over the
    > Viper's Eye. This is perhaps the single most cryptic and rather confusing
    > item I've ever seen for BR. It opens with a description of Azrai before
    > the War of Shadow and says that he was not allways the incarnation of
    > terror and evil that he later became, and that he was a god of knowledge.
    > The description paints a picture of a being of pure buty, but vain. I
    > imagine that he revelled in knowledge as a means to gain power, and those
    > that followed him sought those goals as opposed to Vorynn's path of
    > peaceful magic and moonlight. I also imagine that the Adurians were
    > Azrai's people, just as the Anuireans were Anduirias' and the Masetians
    > were Masella's, etc.

    In my histroy the Adurian were followers of Azari, and in fact still
    are. I saw the artifact in the book of priestcraft and used that as the
    whole basis for my history of Azari. So anyway here goes.

    To start with there are 8 tribes that developed on Aduria.
    The oldest of these tribes was the Ghan people who had an empire in the
    jungles of the south in the distant past. The worshipped beast gods who
    have long since pasted into memory. Following the fall of their empire
    several other tribes developed. At first none of these worshipped the
    gods, but rather followed tribal cults etc. Then the Neha, a tribe of
    eastern Aduria developed the pantheon that is known today.
    They have 9 gods in the pantheon.
    Nestellia - Ancient Goddess of Life & Creation.
    Aebrynis - Ancient God of Death & Rebirth.
    Anduiras - God of nobility and war
    Reynir - God of forests & streams.
    Vorynn - God of magic
    Brenna - Goddess of wealth and fortune
    Masela - Goddess of the Sea
    Basaia - Goddess of the Sun
    Azari - God of pride and knowledge.

    The Neha taught that the ancient gods had given birth to the world and
    its people, and finally its gods. These ancient gods are still
    worshipped, but only by the Neha in the modern day.
    Their relgions spread across the continent to the other tribes with each
    tribe eventually choosing one as their particular god. Azari, the last
    and youngest of the gods had few followers among the people of Aduria at
    the time, as the tribe prefered gods that effected their lives more,
    such as the god of war, or the goddess of the sea, to follow Azari's
    promise of knowledge. Over the centuries Azari grew resentful and sort
    followers where ever he could.
    His few priest soon became less that welcome and were eventualy driven
    from the Andu lands where they had a few temples into the far south.
    More centuries past and a war in the west caused a small new tribe to
    spring up, comprised of the refugees of the Masela. They settled at the
    mouth of a river and soon came to call themselves Adurian's after the
    name of the continent. As they grew in power they expanded and sent out
    expeditions to other lands, eventually to the south where they came in
    contact with the few remaining priests of Azari. The priests convinced
    the explorers to take them back with them. The Adurian were a different
    people from the other tribes, a proud people who sought knowledge, and
    the promises of Azari's priest were welcomed and soon Azari had become
    the only god of the Adurians.
    Over the next thousand years the small Adurian empire expanded
    conquering vast areas of the continent driving out the other tribes, or
    conquering them fully and making them part of the Adurian people.
    Eventually this expansion covers the entire coninent, and causes the
    exodous of the Five Tribes to Cerilia.

    NOTE: This is really brief, the actually history I am working on is a
    lot, lot large and covers about five thousand years or more.


    > Jump ahead to Deismar and we find that Azrai has finally found those people
    > who fled. This says one crucial thing, the gods of old were neither
    > omniescient nor omnipotent. Also, I have never seen in any other D&D game
    > where gods have physically manifested on the Prime Material. According to
    > everything I know, this is not possible, and rather frowned upon by Planar
    > powers. So we have a section that is completely outside the standard AD&D
    > millieu and an opportunity unmatched. Either Aebynis doesn't follow the
    > rules of the rest of the cosmos, or we just had an "artifact moment".

    I use something similar in my campign where the gods only know what is
    occuring around their priests, or worshippers. It means they don't know
    everything, just that which effects their worshippers.
    Deismaar was also the last time there was any actual physical
    manisfesation as the new gods signed a pact to prevent it ever occuring
    again.


    > Now, at Deismar Azrai had pinned the Cerilians in a massive pincer, they
    > were outnumbered and outmached so horribly that only the self-sacrifice of
    > 5 Gods could save them. The Vos and the Elves could not have done that
    > alone, so in my mind the Adurians were there, and in force. Also, assuming
    > that a god's power is directly tied to the number and strength of his/her
    > worshippers, it seems to me that Azrai's base of worship was absolutely
    > HUGE. He had the power to confront 5 gods at once. If he might have
    > dispatched 3 in mass combat that says something, but that it took all his
    > bretheren to match and beat him....

    I agree. The tribes that fled Aduria were the remanents of their
    peoples, the few survivor's fleeing after a long, long war. In the
    hisory I have created for Aduria the empire of Aduria at the time
    dominated the entire southern continent, and could if necessary field
    hundred of thousands of soldiers. Of course most of these were still
    thousands of miles from Cerilia, but the entire northern Adurian army
    was at Deismaar, many twisted by Azari's power. And even with all forces
    of the Cerilia tribes, and the Elves and Dwarves Azari would have still
    been victorious had not the other 6 six gods stepped in and sacrificed
    themselves to stop them.
    I was readying Greatheart the other day and that noval has some good
    stuff on Diesmaar and how the Shadow World came to be, will still have
    to see what is in the official shadow world product yet, but it is a
    good explaination of what happened to the Adurian forces.
    Anyway for my history the Adurian forces were destroyed at Deismaar,
    almost all killed, with only a few beastmen and other nasties surviving.
    Some may have survived but they were a long way from home with no way
    back and were picked off by the Cerilians. The fact that the Adurian
    forces were destroyed is important for my descriptions of modern Aduria.


    > Lets backtrack a long ways now. Azrai has chased his bretheren out of
    > Aduria and captured as many of the tribal kinsmen as he could. Obviously
    > not everyone made it to Cerilia, and of those that didn't, not all of them
    > could have died. The Adurians, as Azrai's folk, are the chosen and the
    > favored on the continent of Aduria. Any of the five tribes left could
    > perhaps have equal footing, but they would most likely be slave peoples.
    > The Adurians were also of sufficient strenth to drive off ALL five tribes.
    > This means they dominated the continent in sheer numbers. Azrai values
    > knowledge (IMO) as a means to gain power, so the people of Aduria are well
    > learned and technologically advanced. Perhaps the empires of Aduria were
    > like unto the Age of Legends in Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time, in fact I
    > can easily see them so, filled with all forms of wonderful magic and
    > devices created by Azrai's priesthood. But also these lands were dominated
    > by the priesthood or perhaps the noble caste. After all evil and vanity
    > seek the betterment of self over others, and I can hardly see Azrai the
    > Vain, the Beautiful, as caring much if a few thousand peasants got
    > squished.

    Amazing, very similar to what I am working on. In my history the Adurain
    were the most advanced tribe on the continent (and still are) and were
    dominated by the priesthood, at least until Deismaar. The conquered
    races became slaves of the Adurian people and were used, and are still
    used to do all the labour and work in Aduria. They had also dominated
    the continent, but did not know that there were survivors left in
    Cerilia, and it was not until Azari found out about this that their
    armies were sent north in time to join in at Deismaar.


    > So he makes the Viper's Eye for Atar of the Vos. Atar becomes the first of
    > the Lost. Here is another piece to support that the gods of old were not
    > all knowing/powerful. Azrai is able to hide his influence for Vorynn and
    > sneak around on Cerilia. Not something an avatar is normally capable of.
    > They fairly reek of divine essences and power, and should have been
    > eminently visible. Azrai also had guts. Of all the old gods, Vorynn is
    > his antithesis at this point. Knowledge for the betterment of others.
    > Vorynn probably knew Azrai best of all.

    I also have lost being ancient necromancers, and the only beings that
    Azari passed on a portion of his power (ie a bloodline) in the five
    hundred years before Deismaar. They became importal undead sorcerers and
    a some remain until this day. Until Deismaar they were among the very
    few of the favourites of the gods that could cast true magic.



    Everything else in the message is differnt from my history so I will
    write up what happened in Aduria according to me (very basic overview).

    1. At Deismaar, or shortly after the forces sent by Aduria were mostly
    destroyed. A few sruvived and either settled in Cerilia or found their
    way back to Aduria over the years, but the main army was gone. Those
    that survived I will deal with shortly.

    2. Shortly after Deismaar the priest of Azari lost much of their power
    as their gods was no longer answering their prayers. The then emperor
    (not a priest) choose that time to throw off the influence of the
    priesthood and elect a new noble council. The priest began a civil war
    to destroy the emperor, which the emperor won.

    3. During the civil war though much of the imperial influence was lost,
    and several of the other races (Neha & Ghan) choose that moment to rebel
    against their Adurian overlord retaking their lost lands. This is much
    like the fall of the roman empire, although the results were sort of the
    reverse of what happened in rome. These other tribes return to
    worshipping the rest of the old gods (spells provided by new gods
    instead).

    4. The civil war and crisis over the Adurian armies lick their wound and
    stay home. The loss of their northern armies cost them greatly and they
    loss much of those lands. The priests are now provided with spells by
    the new gods who descended from Azari, but still worship Azari. In the
    past his influence was much more common, and physical manifestations of
    his power commonplace. Now this does not occur, and Azari does not
    answer the calls of his priest, leading them to believe that the other
    gods have imprisioned Azari and that one day he will escape and once
    again be there for them.

    5. About 300 years after Deismaar the Adurian empire has rebuilt some of
    its lost strength and send its army north to retake the lost lands, and
    seek answers about what happend to Azari. This army encounters the
    surivivors of the northern army from Deismaar, now twisted beastmen. The
    two sides clash and a massive war follows. The beastmen are aided by an
    ancient race of snakemen who have access to powerful spells. They drive
    the Adurian army south before being driving back, at great cost. Much of
    the northern plain, once grassland have been blasted by magic and are
    now a growing desert.

    6.Seeing little use in continuing to expand in that region the empire
    builds several forts to guard against further attacks from the snakemen
    and begin a series of wars with the Nehalim empire, which has now
    recovered and is stronger that ever. These war continue on and off for
    the next thousand years or so until the presenet day, neither side
    gaining or lossing much. The empire does not make many gains in any
    regions.

    7. Present day, a new emporer comes to power, one who has the full might
    of the church of Azari behind him, and set about reforming the
    relationship with the church and appoiniting priest to positions of
    power.

    Anyway that is a quick overview, the finished product will be
    consideribly larger and much more complex, but those are the main
    points. I don't have many people with bloodlines in Aduria, certainly
    there are a few, who have either travelled to Aduria from Cerilia, or
    have descended from the survivors at Deismar. There are still some
    powerful being though. The emperor of Aduria through an artifact that
    holds some of Azari's power has a strong bloodline and some of the lost
    remain, including one who rules a empire covering a great southern
    desert.

    Well thats it for now, back to work...

    - --
    Ian Hoskins

    e-Mail: hoss@box.net.au
    Homepage: http://darkstar.cyberserv.com
    ICQ: 2938300

  7. #7
    Mark A Vandermeulen
    Guest

    Concept of Diesmer and the Bloo

    On Tue, 7 Apr 1998, Tim Nutting wrote:

    > Jump ahead to Deismar and we find that Azrai has finally found those people
    > who fled. This says one crucial thing, the gods of old were neither
    > omniescient nor omnipotent. Also, I have never seen in any other D&D game
    > where gods have physically manifested on the Prime Material. According to
    > everything I know, this is not possible, and rather frowned upon by Planar
    > powers. So we have a section that is completely outside the standard AD&D
    > millieu and an opportunity unmatched. Either Aebynis doesn't follow the
    > rules of the rest of the cosmos, or we just had an "artifact moment".

    I suppose that the more of their "essence" the god's pour into their
    "material forms" the more powerful they are. The gods knew they needed
    more power to defeat Azrai, so they poured more of themselves into their
    material forms, and Azrai countered by pouring more into his own, etc,
    until "all" of the god's essences were localized. Perhaps this happened as
    an accident, or perhaps the gods planned it that way, it being their only
    real chance to defeat the God of Shadow.

    > Now, at Deismar Azrai had pinned the Cerilians in a massive pincer, they
    > were outnumbered and outmached so horribly that only the self-sacrifice of
    > 5 Gods could save them. The Vos and the Elves could not have done that
    > alone, so in my mind the Adurians were there, and in force. Also, assuming
    > that a god's power is directly tied to the number and strength of his/her
    > worshippers, it seems to me that Azrai's base of worship was absolutely
    > HUGE. He had the power to confront 5 gods at once. If he might have
    > dispatched 3 in mass combat that says something, but that it took all his
    > bretheren to match and beat him....

    I believe that Azrai gained lots of power by discovering the Shadow World
    and figuring out how to turn it to his own purpose. So the amount of
    followers could be much closer to similar that you portray here. However,
    Azrai does appear to have more actual fighter-types to throw at the
    opposing armies at Deismaar, but this may be more a function of a culture
    where as many people as possible become fighters. (ie Vos and
    proto-Adurians)

    > So he makes the Viper's Eye for Atar of the Vos. Atar becomes the first of
    > the Lost. Here is another piece to support that the gods of old were not
    > all knowing/powerful. Azrai is able to hide his influence for Vorynn and
    > sneak around on Cerilia. Not something an avatar is normally capable of.
    > They fairly reek of divine essences and power, and should have been
    > eminently visible. Azrai also had guts. Of all the old gods, Vorynn is
    > his antithesis at this point. Knowledge for the betterment of others.
    > Vorynn probably knew Azrai best of all.

    Or he was using is knowledge of the Shadow World for this purpose: to move
    around with out the other gods being aware of him.

    > As a side note, I think Atar is something of a special case. He and the
    > other Lost are unique in the AD&D millieu, and rather outside the rules.
    > The Viper's Eye description talks of how Azrai lured Atar into working dark
    > arts and magic, but not the "magic of elves" which was "unsuitable for
    > humans". Azrai invents a new form of magic to let these humans of his use,
    > and it isn't what we have in the players handbook because //that// is the
    > "magic of elves" - True Magic. Atar wields magic of Shadow and Death, and
    > becomes the first Sorcerer (actual word used) as opposed to Mage of Wizard
    > or Magician. I think this might mean something. I'm going to hit more on
    > this in another post however.

    Not necessarily. It might just mean that they emphasized alteration and
    necromacy, which the elves avoid. But it's an interesting concept, and I
    hope you will go into in more.

    I also like your Aduria and Azrai stuff. The Aduria stuff sounds a lot
    like the stuff Darkstar is working on, and if you two pooled your ideas
    you might be able to feed off each other's ideas and come out with more
    cool stuff even faster. And the stuff you said about Azrai is almost
    identical to my own beliefs.

    Mark VanderMeulen
    vander+@pitt.edu

  8. #8
    David Sean Brown
    Guest

    Concept of Diesmer and the Bloo

    >
    > > In drooling over the relics in the Book of Priestcraft I stumbled over the
    > > Viper's Eye. This is perhaps the single most cryptic and rather confusing
    > > item I've ever seen for BR. It opens with a description of Azrai before
    > > the War of Shadow and says that he was not allways the incarnation of
    > > terror and evil that he later became, and that he was a god of knowledge.
    > > The description paints a picture of a being of pure buty, but vain. I
    > > imagine that he revelled in knowledge as a means to gain power, and those
    > > that followed him sought those goals as opposed to Vorynn's path of
    > > peaceful magic and moonlight. I also imagine that the Adurians were


    This sort of reminds me oearly descriptions of f Torak in David Eddings
    Books...

    Sean

  9. #9
    Tim Nutting
    Guest

    Concept of Diesmer and the Bloo

    Thanks!

    By the time I was finished writing it was incredibly stupid o'clock in the
    morning. I'd thought out allot of it but never put it to "paper!"

    Thanks again for the compliment!

    Tim Nutting

  10. #10
    Tim Nutting
    Guest

    Concept of Diesmer and the Bloo

    > This sort of reminds me oearly descriptions of f Torak in David Eddings
    > Books...
    >
    > Sean

    I too noticed that as well. I won't deny that a fair portion of my early
    Aduria concept comes from the Mallorian and the Belgariad. In my own mind
    I see the ancient gods as having walked the land with their children,
    either woefully unaware of the "wrongness" of full physical manifestation,
    or just scoffed at it.

    Another Belgariad similarity is the idea of the Imprisonment spell (8th
    level wizard - its a 1st edition carryover) that traps its victim deep in
    the surface of the earth, very similar to what Belgarath did to the
    Apostate. (is that the right name?) My answer to what happend to the Lost
    is just that, most were captured by an Imprisonment spell and exist in
    stasis till this very day, awaiting someone foolish enough to release them
    upon the world once more.

    Good Gaming!

    Tim Nutting

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