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  1. #11
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    I like Bearcat's ideas for the Magician, but since I'm more focused on the Skills and Feats discussions, I'll give a greewn light to whatever happens here in the Character Class discussions
    "It may be better to be a live jackal than a dead lion, but it is better still to be a live lion -- and usually easier."

    - R. A. Heinlien, from The Collected works of Lazarus Long

  2. #12
    Senior Member RaspK_FOG's Avatar
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    Originally posted by "Bearcat"+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE ("Bearcat")</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>One of the things that I&#39;ve noticed in the new Magician class is a loss of the focus on their being specialists in Illusion and Divination, because they have to put extra effort there for lack of other spells. I propose that the special abilities reflect this. Borrowing a little from the "Noble Focus" of the noble class, we could divide the special abilities into a "Path of Knowing" and a "Path of Seeming" (The terms being borrowed from BoM p.48).

    Unlike the Noble Focus, each path is a linear progression that the magician can follow, but the Magician is not bound to either path. Thus you can have "generalists" who follow both paths to some extent, "seers" who follow the path of knowing exclusively, and "magicians" who follow the path of seeming exclusively (the distinction between seers and magicians also appears in the BoM p.48). A magician would get a new special ability from either path at 1st, 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th level.[/b]

    I like your idea a lot: it incorporates the feeling of 2e nicely.

    Originally posted by "Bearcat"@
    Specialty (First Step): Add +1 to the difficulty scores of saving throws against divination spells cast by the magician. Furthermore, the magician receives a +1 bonus to all saving throws versus divination spells, and gains a +2 bonus to Spellcraft checks to add a divination spell to her spellbook. The effects of this ability do not stack with Spell Focus(Divination), but this ability can be considered as a virtual Spell Focus (Divination) feat.
    This could essentially be translated another way (I need to remind you here that Arcane Defence was a 3e feat from Tome and Blood that required of you to have Spell Focus with the same school in order to grant you a +2 bonus on saves against that school; in 3.5e, the bonus should be reduced to +1):
    Parting the Veil of Truth (Rasp&#39;s Note: or whatever): You gain Spell Focus (Divination) and Arcane Defence (Divination) (Rasp&#39;s Note: or you could avoid making such a reference for the site&#39;s own good; stupid me&#33, and also gain the benefits a wizard specialist gains for specialising in the school of Illusion.
    The same should apply on the path of Seeming as well.

    <!--QuoteBegin-"Bearcat"

    Trickster (Second Step): By using his talent for cantrips and minor glamers and figments a magician can distract, unbalance, or otherwise interfere with an enemy. Using this ability is a move equivalent action and imposes a -1 penalty to the victim&#39;s next roll. It can be used as often as the magician likes, and at a range of five feet per magician level. Activating the ability provokes an attack of opportunity.[/quote]
    The range should be "Close", that is, 25 feet plus 5 feet for every 2 levels.

  3. #13

    This could essentially be translated another way (I need to remind you here that Arcane Defence was a 3e feat from Tome and Blood that required of you to have Spell Focus with the same school in order to grant you a +2 bonus on saves against that school; in 3.5e, the bonus should be reduced to +1)
    The reason I did this the way I did was because I was working exclusively from the SRD. I didn&#39;t want to reference a feat that either (as you observed, could get the website in trouble), or not everyone would have access to. Basically my goal here was to approximate the benefits of specialization that the magician&#39;s gained in 2e. I didn&#39;t use the 3E as a model (except for the chance to learn spells) because the bonus spell gained by the magician is already in their spell progression table, and requiring that that spell be from the schools of magic to which they are restricted seemed a little bit ridiculous. To make up for that I threw in the other benefits of 2e specialization instead.


    The range should be "Close", that is, 25 feet plus 5 feet for every 2 levels.
    That would also work fine.

    Any comments on the balance of the abilities themselves? I tried to keep it relatively balanced with an eye to when each step could first be gained, but I&#39;m still not sure whether they get over powered towards the end.

  4. #14
    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
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    Any comments on the balance of the abilities themselves? I tried to keep it relatively balanced with an eye to when each step could first be gained, but I&#39;m still not sure whether they get over powered towards the end.
    First off, wanted to say, I really, really like the Paths concepts: very cool&#33; :)

    Now, as for some constructive feedback, one of the abilities really stood out as potentially over-powered.

    Master Advisor (Fourth Step): By this point in her career, a seer is able to provide assistance on a grand scale and influence the fate of nations. She may grant a +2 circumstance bonus to any domain action roll by a regent. Using this ability requires a character action on the part of the seer, meaning that it can only be used once in a given domain round.
    I would write in a limit of once per season for this ability, balancing it with the idea of lieutenants being able to &#39;step in&#39; for a regent once a season. This way a regent has to choose what&#39;s really important for his seer advisor to aid in, rather than allowing a +2 bonus to all domain actions if the seer is a permanent fixture in the court.

    A few other comments:
    Advisor (Second Step): Seers have a tendency to just "know" things that will be helpful to their companions. A Seer with this ability automatically succeeds on any attempt to aid another character in the use of a skill. If the seer is untrained in a skill that requires training, and still wants to aid her companion, she may make an untrained skill check anyway against a DC of 15 (She knows what needs to be done, but doesn&#39;t neccessarily have the vocabulary to express it). To use this ability the seer does not neccessarily have to be physically in the same location as the companion. The only requirement is that she be able to communicate with him (either verbally or telepathically). The seer can only aide one companion at any given moment.
    How about just requiring a Concentration check at DC 10 for any skill the Magician has ranks in, and DC 20 for any untrained skill? Automatic seems a bit over the top, but a good Concentration skill will cover the bases pretty well.

    Also, a good alternative for the Advisor step would be gaining the Lore skill as bards - I think this is an excellent representation of a seer&#39;s ability to pull random pieces of information out of his mystical hat, to know normally unknowable things - it would be equal to his Magician level plus INT modifier, +2 if he has 5 or more ranks in K/History. Also, you could add a special synergy for magicians, +2 for 5 or more ranks in Concentration. :)

    Otherwise, I like the other Seer progresions (Prescient is very cool; Uncanny Dodge + Wis bonus to AC is quite strong, but not uber-powered).

    One other thing: I would simply name the first step of each path as the Spell Focus bonus feat, and then add the additional ability of save bonuses as a second part of the advance. This way it is clear that the magician can take Greater Spell Focus as a seperate feat.

    An idea for True Illusion: What if the magician doubled the "reality" of any Shadow spells, up to 100% maximum, or added a certain percentage of realness (maybe 10% per 5 class levels?) to any Shadow spell. The Shadow spells are definitely the truest representation of spells that draw on the Seeming, and it seems appropriate that a master could draw more of the realness into them.

    There&#39;s my 2-1/2 cents. :)

    Osprey

  5. #15
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    How about just requiring a Concentration check at DC 10 for any skill the Magician has ranks in, and DC 20 for any untrained skill? Automatic seems a bit over the top, but a good Concentration skill will cover the bases pretty well.
    Maybe use a wisdom check instead? DC 10 / 15?
    "It may be better to be a live jackal than a dead lion, but it is better still to be a live lion -- and usually easier."

    - R. A. Heinlien, from The Collected works of Lazarus Long

  6. #16
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    I like the ideas bearcat I do something quite similar to this for magicians myself but think that your version looks better. I also think that magicians should have access to only divination illusion spells beyond 2nd lev.

  7. #17
    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
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    Similarly, the bard should lose spells, but only to a lesser extent. Although he original BR prohibited all bards (even blooded ones) from using True Magic, it seemed to draw a distinction between Wizardly magic and Bardic magic (hence they were also granted the use of enchantment spells). Thus while bards should lose spells from their list above second level, they should be allowed to keep "bardic spells", such as charms, bard specific spells (Sculpt Sound for instance), and perhaps even spells that appear on bard spell lists but not on Wizard/Sorcerors spell lists.

    Now, the counter-argument of balance is sure to be brought up, and I&#39;m pretty sure that a reply of "they got shafted in the original verion, so they should get shafted now" isn&#39;t going to fly real well.

    For bards the argument could be made that they already gain a sort of tradeoff. Even though they lose abilities, they are pretty much untouchable in many cultural regions, and that alone can help make up for the loss (as long as they don&#39;t abuse it). If that doesn&#39;t work out in Vosgaard or Khinasi, well, that&#39;s why bards are so rare in those regions: it just doesn&#39;t pay to be one. If you wanted to quantify that benefit, you could say that bards gain a hefty bonus to Diplomacy, Bluff, and Gather Information Skills in friendly regions.
    These are interesting proposals. However, I really see no great need to power down bardic magic for Birthright.

    The bards&#39; spell lists are already heavily focused on Enchantment as the primary school, and illusion and some transmutation (ex. haste/slow) as secondary schools. Otherwise, some sonic spells make up their only really offensive powers.

    I think the art of Spellsong should not be directly equated with magicians&#39; magic. While both might be Lesser Magic, this doesn&#39;t necesarily mean a huge difference inpower so much as approach. I see Spellsong as being one of the most potent of lesser magic paths, a high art that makes the most of the Lesser Path through the magic of harmonics and song. The fact that bardic magic might duplicate true magic as level 3+ spells doesn&#39;t bother me in the slightest, because I see the spells being cast in a way that is entirely different than a wizard or even a sorcerer would cast them.

    I think Spellsong should be regarded as "lesser" more as a true mage&#39;s point of view and a commentary on its method - generally more subtle, less forceful, more like coaxing than forcing magic out of the land, people, and the songs themselves.

    And if a Spellsong master can wollop out a Shout or Greater Shout once in a while, well - more power to him&#33; This is the power of Spellsong, not a great blast of mebhaighal shaped into a sonic effect as a mage would do it. Though a mage might believe it to be such a thing, the bard would know it&#39;s a special property of attuning the harmonics of his spellsong to special destructive frequencies - a subtle approach (as is fitting), but with a very loud and dramatic effect.

    Bottom line: it&#39;s not what you do that distinguishes lesser and greater magic, but HOW you do it that makes all the difference. Spellsong is an elven art, while magicians are a more human approach to lesser magic. So it makes sense that magicians remain divination and illusion specialists, while bards remain slightly superior in their diverse choice of spells, but will have fewer of them and lower levels than magicians.

    Osprey

  8. #18

    Bottom line: it&#39;s not what you do that distinguishes lesser and greater magic, but HOW you do it that makes all the difference. Spellsong is an elven art, while magicians are a more human approach to lesser magic. So it makes sense that magicians remain divination and illusion specialists, while bards remain slightly superior in their diverse choice of spells, but will have fewer of them and lower levels than magicians.
    Quite so. I am convinced. Bards can be left as they are. Magicians, however,
    should have the old restrictions placed upon them.


    How about just requiring a Concentration check at DC 10 for any skill the Magician has ranks in, and DC 20 for any untrained skill? Automatic seems a bit over the top, but a good Concentration skill will cover the bases pretty well.
    The way in which the Aid Another on a skill thing works is that the helper must make a skill check against DC 10 to give the companion a +2 bonus to their roll. This is a relatively easy task to accomplish for most characters, so my intention was just to allow the magician to forgo that formality. Another option would be to bend the rule and say that Magician&#39;s can take 10 for such rolls (which normally isn&#39;t allowed). That would mean sucess isn&#39;t guaranteed unless the Magician would know what they were doing anyway (I.E. have a non-negative bonus). The untrained thing would stay the same.


    Also, a good alternative for the Advisor step would be gaining the Lore skill as bards - I think this is an excellent representation of a seer&#39;s ability to pull random pieces of information out of his mystical hat, to know normally unknowable things - it would be equal to his Magician level plus INT modifier, +2 if he has 5 or more ranks in K/History. Also, you could add a special synergy for magicians, +2 for 5 or more ranks in Concentration. :)
    That would also work.

    However, the concept that I had with both of the advisor powers was that a seer is somewhat useless by herself, or when nobody pays attention to her (Like poor Cassandra from the Trojan War), but really shines when other characters make use of their abilities (I guess I wanted them to be the ultimate support class :) ).

    I also wanted to avoid copying any other class features mostly verbatim without doing new and exciting things with them (Hence the uncanny dodge/monk AC fusion that is Prescient) because I see that a lot and I think that expanding the horizons of the game is a good thing.

    Also, it brings focus to an aspect/rule of the game that doesn&#39;t get used nearly enough in my opinion ;)


    I would write in a limit of once per season for this ability, balancing it with the idea of lieutenants being able to &#39;step in&#39; for a regent once a season. This way a regent has to choose what&#39;s really important for his seer advisor to aid in, rather than allowing a +2 bonus to all domain actions if the seer is a permanent fixture in the court.
    Good suggestion, that would make them function like the expert advisors in the Book of Regency. I would recommend increasing the bonus to +3 in this case. A 15th+ level seer should be able to act as the highest grade of expert advisor.


    One other thing: I would simply name the first step of each path as the Spell Focus bonus feat, and then add the additional ability of save bonuses as a second part of the advance. This way it is clear that the magician can take Greater Spell Focus as a seperate feat.
    I thought I had made that clear by saying that it could act as a virtual Spell Focus feat, but if this change would clarify it (or be significantly less verbose for that matter) it would be reasonable to adopt it.


    An idea for True Illusion: What if the magician doubled the "reality" of any Shadow spells, up to 100% maximum, or added a certain percentage of realness (maybe 10% per 5 class levels?) to any Shadow spell. The Shadow spells are definitely the truest representation of spells that draw on the Seeming, and it seems appropriate that a master could draw more of the realness into them.
    That would work well too. Although the 10% per fives levels thing is kinda moot unless you&#39;re using epic characters (You have to be at least 20th level to gain this ability). What I was going for was that the magician could pretty much do anything that someone with Lesser Seeming (See Blood Spawn p. 7) could do in the Shadow World although for a relatively short duration (and the use of the ability being limited by a major potential drawback).

  9. #19
    Another issue that needs to be addressed is that of Ex-Magicians and Ex-Wizards. This is something that seems to be an ongoing assumption in the chapter that if you&#39;re blooded you stay blooded, and if you&#39;re unblooded you stay unblooded. However, due to investiture, divestiture, and the new usurpation rules, this isn&#39;t neccessarily the case. So what happens when a magician becomes blooded or wizard/sorceror loses their bloodline?

    Ex-Magicians/Ex-Wizards

    I think that the most crucial thing to remember about these two is that they essentially do the same thing, but that they are separated from each other solely by bloodline. I think that they should have to take levels in the opposite class instead of the original class, but I think that they should use their combined levels in both classes to determine spells per day (probably using the table from their original class: ex-Magicians will still have that specialist flair they always had, while ex-Wizards are coming into the Lesser Magic game late and so don&#39;t have the extra spell per day.)

    Ex-Sorcerors

    This one is a problem for me. Sorcerors gain their magical abilities by using their innate "spark" to manipulate magic. In Standard D20 this comes from dragonblood or some such thing. In BR it can be assumed to be elven blood or a divine bloodline. So what happens to a human sorceror who loses their bloodline and hence their "spark"? Are they completely screwed and lose all their spell casting abilities? Lesser magic seems to require loads of studying and practice to make up for being sparkless, so that seems to be the most reasonable consequence. However, it seems unneccesarily harsh (I can already visualize the hypothetical player of a 20th level sorceror sitting across from me shouting "I lose what-now?&#33;"). I&#39;m not sure what a well explained alternative would be.

    Of course, another question this discussion brings to my mind is "What happens when a blooded scion of a major or great line loses their bloodline?". Specifically, what happens to their Scion class levels? Do they lose them? Do you lose the bloodline and leadership bonus, but keep the skills and hit points? This probably wasn&#39;t a problem in Savage Species because presumably if you are a Minotaur character there is no way for you to become a not-Minotaur character. I think the solution to both this question and the sorceror question should be related somehow. I know that Chapter 2 is closed, but this is a case of something coming up in relation to another chapter that has wider implications (besides, its better to have a standardized answer than to make everyone come up with a houserule).

  10. #20
    Senior Member RaspK_FOG's Avatar
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    First of, I want to point out that I would like to see magicians having to prepare one of their spells per level as a spell of their chosen path, or either divination or illusion if a generalist magician: the whole idea that magicians get more spells per day than a wizard, even if those spells are very limited, seems rather jumpy...

    I generally believe that the following could solve ex-class issues:
    • Magicians who become blooded can continue gaining levels as magicians, or they can take wizard levels. In the latter case, the character has to start over in his career, but his caster level equals his magician and wizard level totals in spells found on both spell lists: he just has to reeducate himself.
    • Ex-sorcerers are a tricky issue: since their ability to tap mebhaighal is derived from a special connection to the land, they will immediately lose any spell-casting ability. However, I somehow cannot think of a sorcerer as a bearer of offspring in the manner of kings, and thus I do not know what would come to pass of his bloodline.
    • Ex-wizards should be able to train as magicians by learning new spells.

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