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  1. #1
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Allright here is a revision to the revised Chap 1. It only has character class info. I did not work on the Magician class since so far there hasn't been enough focused discussion on ways to tweek it.

    A lot of things have been changed (partial list); Info on where rangers get their spells, paladin alignments, variant for new paladin classes, revised noble class.

    The favored terrain bonus for the spell-less ranger variant is from the Athas.org ranger. I asked them for permission to use it and they said yes. I didn't want to make the spell-less ranger too similar to the combat oriented one from the Complete Warrior. That one can always be used by a DM if they want to.


    Here is the pdf file download.
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    Duane Eggert

  2. #2
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Here is a zipped word version.
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    Duane Eggert

  3. #3
    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
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    Looking over the Paladin of Cuiraecen, it looked really good -at first. But looking more closely, I realized it is way underpowered compared to a fighter or especially a fighter/paladin. The problem is that after 5th level, with no spells nor turning ability, they become a far less attractive class than fighters. The low-level abilities are great, the high level ones too few.
    I'd give them a bonus feat at 4th level and every 3 levels thereafter, as they're not getting the spells and turning of normal paladins; their lay on hands, special mount, and remove disease keep going up though, so they shouldn't have as many feats as a fighter, but 1 per 3 seems reasonable and keeps them more balanced with fighters and other paladins at higher levels.

  4. #4
    Senior Member RaspK_FOG's Avatar
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    My initial idea was to give them another feat at 1st level but, hey, we need ideas!

    Care to share?

  5. #5
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Osprey@Jun 9 2004, 06:33 PM
    Looking over the Paladin of Cuiraecen, it looked really good -at first. But looking more closely, I realized it is way underpowered compared to a fighter or especially a fighter/paladin. The problem is that after 5th level, with no spells nor turning ability, they become a far less attractive class than fighters. The low-level abilities are great, the high level ones too few.
    I'd give them a bonus feat at 4th level and every 3 levels thereafter, as they're not getting the spells and turning of normal paladins; their lay on hands, special mount, and remove disease keep going up though, so they shouldn't have as many feats as a fighter, but 1 per 3 seems reasonable and keeps them more balanced with fighters and other paladins at higher levels.
    Compare it to the spell less paladin from the Compete Warrior (pg 13). In exchange for losing the ability to cast spells they gain 4 extra abilities (which I correspond to feats) then take away turn undead and I added in an extra feat. The abilities added in the CW are more limiting than being able to choose any fighter feat, including specialization (and its feat tree).

    A bonus feat at 4th and every 3rd level after would be a total of 6 extra feats if my math is correct. A fighter gets a total of 11 bonus feats. The paladin still gets all of the other standard paladin abilities (e.g., lay on hands, smite evil, detect evil, divine grace, divine health, aura of courage, special mount, remove disease). How does this all stack up with the extra 5 feats that a fighter would get? The fighter, IMO would then come up way behind the paladin.

    I did play around with whether or not losing turning udnead was worth 1 or 2 bonus feats but went with the former because of the choice of feats allowed.
    Duane Eggert

  6. #6
    Senior Member teloft's Avatar
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    I do not have acrobat reader at this internet caffey Im currently using, So hapens its the only one for miles, and the OTHER one has closed down for all buisniss. I think thayll chance it into a pub.

    So my request is for a plain text version, or simmilar !!

    well, if its to much problem, then its ok. I can always walk thows miles.

    Keep up the good work

  7. #7
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Originally posted by teloft@Jun 9 2004, 08:01 PM
    I do not have acrobat reader at this internet caffey Im currently using, So hapens its the only one for miles, and the OTHER one has closed down for all buisniss. I think thayll chance it into a pub.

    So my request is for a plain text version, or simmilar !!

    well, if its to much problem, then its ok. I can always walk thows miles.

    Keep up the good work
    No zip files either?

    The zipped one was a word version.

    I'll post another link with an unzipped word version.

    Here it is:
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Duane Eggert

  8. #8
    Does the Smite Evil ability of the Paladin of Cuiraecen progress for more uses?

    And Monks.. No monks? There's great potential for Monks as prestige like classes, each geared towards lawful dieties. Kriesha for example could have monks that attain special affinity for the cold etc. Perhaps at a high level thier fists turn into Frost weapons I know this thing has gone through tons of revisions, but since I'm unemployed for atleast a month (maybe the whole summer&#33 I have plenty of time to think and write/type stuff up now!

    @ Osprey - A Paladin is a melee character (usually), but not a melee specialist. The fighter gets bonus feats and that's all he has for class features. The Barbarian has his rage ability which isn't reliant on his enemy's alignment (and several other minor abilities). The Paladin is a sturdy combatant w/ his bonuses to saves/immunities and heavy armor ability, but he isnt a fighter. He's a champion of good and thus his abilities are geared towards fighting evil.


    IMO, this is drastic but,.. I'd say make the Cleric, Fighter, Magician, Noble, Rogue and Wizard the only BR base classes. Prestige or regionalize/racialize (Is that.. are those even words? lol) everything else.




    and.. Sorry I havn't posted in awhile. Had a great paying job opportunity that lasted about 3 weeks (subcontracting friends ftw) and I spent a week in GED study/prep (which I took this past Monday and Tuesday). I dropped out of HS about three years ago at the beginning of my junior year.

    I'll happily post a revised High Mage Aelies of you'll still have me. :wub: Also have a Boeruine and Avanil in the works. ^_^ and rhuobhe, chimaera, binman revisions... lalala
    Thread Slaying Specialist.

  9. #9
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Does the Smite Evil ability of the Paladin of Cuiraecen progress for more uses?
    My bad. The paladin of Cuiraecen should have the exact same progression on Smite Evil as does the PHB paladin. I'll fix it in the 'final version.

    And Monks.. No monks? There's great potential for Monks as prestige like classes, each geared towards lawful dieties. Kriesha for example could have monks that attain special affinity for the cold etc. Perhaps at a high level thier fists turn into Frost weapons I know this thing has gone through tons of revisions, but since I'm unemployed for atleast a month (maybe the whole summer&#33 I have plenty of time to think and write/type stuff up now!
    The idea of monks in Birthright has been discussed to death. See the FAQ for links on this. The PHB monk is basically an oriental/internal spiritual model. There is only one culture that could reasonablly support them - the Khinasi. They do not get their abilities from a deity, at least no the PHB version. Several people have done their own cultural variations of the clas for use in their own games and that it is the best way to handle the class.


    IMO, this is drastic but,.. I'd say make the Cleric, Fighter, Magician, Noble, Rogue and Wizard the only BR base classes. Prestige or regionalize/racialize (Is that.. are those even words? lol) everything else.
    Paladins have also been discussed and voted on so that is where we are with them.

    To drop ranger from the list of core BR classes is also something that most people don't want. Another poll was done on BR rangers. Spellcasting versus non-spell casting.
    Duane Eggert

  10. #10

    I did not work on the Magician class since so far there hasn't been enough focused discussion on ways to tweek it.
    Lets try to take that on then .

    I've spent a bit of time reviewing the class as it appears in the original campaign, in the BoM and in the 3E conversion. What concerns me is the shift in the difference between lesser magic and true magic between the two versions. I'm sure that you can elaborate on this for me but it appears as if the BRCS magician's spell list is derived in a large part from the D20 bard's spell list. This creates a situation where lesser magic, instead of being a subset of arcane magic entirely contained within the scope of True Magic, is a subset of arcane magic that overlaps in some places with True Magic.

    This runs counter to the spirit of the original distinction, which was that any wizard could cast any spell a magician could cast, but not vice versa. Magicians were limited by birth in power, and the fact that they had to work so hard to make even the smallest magical tasks function is in large part something that gives True casters an aura of mystique and power. Thus, I feel that magicians should have their original spellcasting restrictions returned (Only Illusion and Divination spells beyond second level).

    Similarly, the bard should lose spells, but only to a lesser extent. Although he original BR prohibited all bards (even blooded ones) from using True Magic, it seemed to draw a distinction between Wizardly magic and Bardic magic (hence they were also granted the use of enchantment spells). Thus while bards should lose spells from their list above second level, they should be allowed to keep "bardic spells", such as charms, bard specific spells (Sculpt Sound for instance), and perhaps even spells that appear on bard spell lists but not on Wizard/Sorcerors spell lists.

    Now, the counter-argument of balance is sure to be brought up, and I'm pretty sure that a reply of "they got shafted in the original verion, so they should get shafted now" isn't going to fly real well.

    For bards the argument could be made that they already gain a sort of tradeoff. Even though they lose abilities, they are pretty much untouchable in many cultural regions, and that alone can help make up for the loss (as long as they don't abuse it). If that doesn't work out in Vosgaard or Khinasi, well, that's why bards are so rare in those regions: it just doesn't pay to be one. If you wanted to quantify that benefit, you could say that bards gain a hefty bonus to Diplomacy, Bluff, and Gather Information Skills in friendly regions.

    For Magicians, a lot of the important work has been done. They gain more skill points than Wizards, which reflects the expanded proficiency categories from the original very well, and the Spontaneous casting ability is a really good way of representing the original cantrip talents of magicians.

    Its the special abilities that need work. Right now they are kind of "blah". Of course, being myself, I have a suggestion of one possible way to improve it.

    One of the things that I've noticed in the new Magician class is a loss of the focus on their being specialists in Illusion and Divination, because they have to put extra effort there for lack of other spells. I propose that the special abilities reflect this. Borrowing a little from the "Noble Focus" of the noble class, we could divide the special abilities into a "Path of Knowing" and a "Path of Seeming" (The terms being borrowed from BoM p.48).

    Unlike the Noble Focus, each path is a linear progression that the magician can follow, but the Magician is not bound to either path. Thus you can have "generalists" who follow both paths to some extent, "seers" who follow the path of knowing exclusively, and "magicians" who follow the path of seeming exclusively (the distinction between seers and magicians also appears in the BoM p.48). A magician would get a new special ability from either path at 1st, 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th level.

    Here is an idea for how the paths might look:

    Path of Knowing

    Specialty (First Step): Add +1 to the difficulty scores of saving throws against divination spells cast by the magician. Furthermore, the magician receives a +1 bonus to all saving throws versus divination spells, and gains a +2 bonus to Spellcraft checks to add a divination spell to her spellbook. The effects of this ability do not stack with Spell Focus(Divination), but this ability can be considered as a virtual Spell Focus (Divination) feat.

    Advisor (Second Step): Seers have a tendency to just "know" things that will be helpful to their companions. A Seer with this ability automatically succeeds on any attempt to aid another character in the use of a skill. If the seer is untrained in a skill that requires training, and still wants to aid her companion, she may make an untrained skill check anyway against a DC of 15 (She knows what needs to be done, but doesn't neccessarily have the vocabulary to express it). To use this ability the seer does not neccessarily have to be physically in the same location as the companion. The only requirement is that she be able to communicate with him (either verbally or telepathically). The seer can only aide one companion at any given moment.

    Prescient (Third Step): The seer is so attuned to fortune and augury that she can anticipate attacks before they are even launched. She can add her wisdom bonus to her armor class. She can can also keep her Dexterity and Wisdom bonuses when caught flat-footed.

    Master Advisor (Fourth Step): By this point in her career, a seer is able to provide assistance on a grand scale and influence the fate of nations. She may grant a +2 circumstance bonus to any domain action roll by a regent. Using this ability requires a character action on the part of the seer, meaning that it can only be used once in a given domain round.

    Oracular (Fifth Step): Once per month the seer can learn the answer to one question. The question can be about anything past or present (although questions about future events will be much vaguer). This ability is similar to Contact Other Plane although the entity contacted will always know the answer, will never lie, and using this ability poses no risk of reducing the seers ability score. Furthermore, the answer is not limited to a one word answer, but instead can be a short sentence.

    Path of Seeming

    Specialty (First Step): Add +1 to the difficulty scores of saving throws against illusion spells cast by the magician. Furthermore, the magician receives a +1 bonus to all saving throws versus illusion spells, and gains a +2 bonus to Spellcraft checks to add an illusion spell to her spellbook. The effects of this ability do not stack with Spell Focus(Illusion), but this ability can be considered as a virtual Spell Focus(Illusion) feat.

    Trickster (Second Step): By using his talent for cantrips and minor glamers and figments a magician can distract, unbalance, or otherwise interfere with an enemy. Using this ability is a move equivalent action and imposes a -1 penalty to the victim's next roll. It can be used as often as the magician likes, and at a range of five feet per magician level. Activating the ability provokes an attack of opportunity.

    Dissembler (Third Step): As the magician's talents at manipulating image and sound grow he develops the ability to generate a small displacement field. Using this ability requires a full round action, but grants the magician the benefits of 20% cover for the next ten rounds. Activating this ability provokes an attack of opportunity.

    Master of Illusion (Fourth Step): The magician has become so adept at manipulating his creations that concentration is considered to be a free action while he has a line of sight to his spell effect. This applies only to spells of the illusion school.

    True Illusion (Fifth Step): One of the sources of illusionary magic is the Shadow World and the Seeming. By the time that a magician has reached a certain level of expertise he can draw significant amounts of the Seeming into the waking world itself. Using this ability requires a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity. The magician can use it to accomplish any of the following (or any similar task at the DM's discretion): make a melee attack against any creature within 50 feet, transport any movable object or creature 30 feet in any direction (the object cannot be transported into another solid object), replicate the effects of any spell up to third level (with a maximum duration of 5 rounds for non-instantaneous spells), halve the hardness of any inanimate object for 5 rounds, or double the hardness of any inanimate object for 5 rounds. The magician must make a will saving throw at DC 10 or be drawn into the Shadow World without having a means of returning. Each successive use of this ability during a twenty-four hour period increases the save DC by two.

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