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  1. #1
    Senior Member RaspK_FOG's Avatar
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    I agree with the BRCS team's consent on following the rule-books as closely as possible, but I think there's a bit of obsolete data here...

    Leadership was built based on settings that had no such skill as Lead. For that reason alone, its only prerequisite is that your character has at least 6 character levels. Now, while I agree with that (right over the 1/4th threshold), the feat seems to good: even the wild mongrel wtih no ranks in Lead can choose Leadership as a feat!

    I say that the prerequisites for Leadership change to: "Character Level 6, Lead 9 ranks."

  2. #2
    Heh, sounds logical to me. Would be easier for those regents who have lead as one of their needed skills, the Law and Temple regents. So, the Guild regents (generally rogues) will have plenty of skills points to get lead that high by 6th level if they want it that soon.
    "Who was the first that forged the deadly blade? Of rugged steel his savage soul was made." --Tibullus

    "Qui desiderat pacem praeparet bellum." --Vegetius

    "Men grow tired of sleep, love, singing and dancing sooner than war." --Homer

  3. #3
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    I have to disagree. I think adding things as prereqs to the Leadership feat is jsut mucking up a system that is already in place for no real good reason except it "sounds better".

    The leadership feat gets you the following:

    Cohorts
    Lieutenants (super cohorts)
    Followers

    It really has nothing to do with leading troops or very large groups of people, which the Lead skill attempts to capture.
    Duane Eggert

  4. #4
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    I seem to think that this change extremely penalizes wizards. It means that a wizards (or any class that does not have Leadership as a class skill), would not be able to get cohorts, LT's or henchmen until 18th level. I would highly disagree with anyone who says that a wizard does have the possiblilty to do this prior to 18th level.

  5. #5
    Lieutenants? eh? where did that come from?

    What!?!? Leadership feat has nothing to do with leading troops!? Or the Large Groups of Followers...

    I think that what Rasp was trying to point out is that Leadership allows people to attract Military Units as Cohorts. As leading a Military Unit well relies upon the Lead Skill, it is a logical connection.

    A possible compromise would be to require 9 ranks in Lead to use that BR specific ability of Leadership, to have a military unit as a cohort.


    And actually it would be level 15 for characters who only get Lead as a cross class skill, not 18th. And how many Source regents are going to care about leading larger groups of followers... or military units... most don't.
    "Who was the first that forged the deadly blade? Of rugged steel his savage soul was made." --Tibullus

    "Qui desiderat pacem praeparet bellum." --Vegetius

    "Men grow tired of sleep, love, singing and dancing sooner than war." --Homer

  6. #6
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    Then what of the Great Leader feat?
    "It may be better to be a live jackal than a dead lion, but it is better still to be a live lion -- and usually easier."

    - R. A. Heinlien, from The Collected works of Lazarus Long

  7. #7
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Check out Chap 8 for Lts.

    The logic of the Leadership feat is as follows:

    In 2nd ed PCs could have followers and henchmen. These were replaced via cohorts in 3/3.5. In 2nd ed regents got bodyguards which were based on the PHB (fighters, clerics and rogues) and that Lt counted towaards the max number of henchmen a PC could have.

    Here is a write up I did a long time ago on it (prior to 3.5):

    Reasons why Leadership feat should be available to regents at 1st level:

    Using fighter class as base

    In 2nd ed:
    PHB – at 9th level a fighter automatically attracts men-at-arms if he has a castle or stronghold. In addition they also attracts an elite body guard. There was a random table for generating a leader, troops/followers and elite units.
    BRRB – These bodyguards are gained at 1st level if the character is a regent, otherwise they are gained as per the PHB. Random tables are similar, not exact, to those in the PHB.

    PHB had the limit for number of henchmen a character could have based upon his Charisma. Level limit of henchmen had to be less than character level.
    BRRB had the number of Lieutenants and henchmen (total) limited by the number of henchmen based upon Charisma. Level limit of henchmen had to be less than character level, modified by bloodline strength.

    In 3rd ed
    DMG has the Leadership feat available at 6th level. This feat includes attracting cohorts (with level based upon leadership score). Cohorts, after initial level do not have a level limit based upon character’s level – but they only gain half exp points. Leadership feat also includes gaining followers, which is roughly the same as the old men-at-arms/body guards. There doesn’t seem to be a limit to the number of cohorts a character can attract.

    It only makes sense to modify the DMG rules for regents. IMO there are several ways this can be done.

    First option is to simply allow a regent access to Leadership feat at the time he becomes a regent (instead of waiting until 6th level to be eligible), i.e., he can purchase the feat when he is capable of gaining a new feat. We can use the rules for followers to determine the number of bodyguards that a regent can acquire. Note that the DMG specifies that these followers are warriors, experts or commoners. If a regent chooses not to purchase the feat then he doesn’t gain bodyguards or Lieutenants.

    Second option is to give the regent the Leadership feat for free. If we specify that this only applies to those with major scion template (or better) and that other regents have to purchase the feat this gives another little benefit to having to take an ECL.

    We could not modify the feat at all. Regents would have to wait until 6th level, then take the feat in order to gain bodyguards or Lieutenants.

    We could say that they could still attract Lieutenants without the feat. IMO this doesn’t seem very wise since by all appearances cohorts are the same as Lieutenants.


    Proposal:

    Leadership Feat (detailed in DMG): The structure of the BRCS requires some modification of this feat. Due to the unique make up of the BRCS it is recommended that the allowance for “special cohorts” not be used since most of the creatures referred to do not exist, or at the very least are exceptionally rare in Cerilia.

    Prerequisite: character level equal to 6th level or 1st level regent character
    Modifications (for regents only):

    The make up of the followers is detailed in the For the DM Chapter under bodyguards. Followers are always of the same race as regent. Half elves may choose whether their followers are human (of their parent’s race), elf or other half elves – can’t mix humans with elves and half elves, but can mix elves and half elves.

    Cohorts are Lieutenants and the terms are interchangeable.

    Maximum number of Lieutenants (cohorts) a regent may have at any time is one plus his charisma modifier.

    Use the regent’s effective character level as his level for determining his leadership score.

    What this does is:
    Allows an existing 3rd ed mechanic to govern how to acquire bodyguards and Lieutenants with very little change.

    Removes the restriction that characters that only gained RP from source holdings couldn’t acquire bodyguards.

    Incorporates the character’s effective character level due to a scion template into his overall level for determining number and level of followers/body guards and Lieutenants. This is similar to the rules from the BRRB for Lieutenant level and regent level with bloodline strength modifier.

    If a player chooses to not follow the road to rulership by taking this feat then he is a less effective ruler, one he doesn’t gain any Lieutenants and has no bodyguards. It becomes the player’s choice as to which way he develops his character. By not having any Lieutenants a regent’s ability to respond to random events is limited and he wouldn’t gain an extra action per domain turn.

    Non regents still follow the normal rules for Leadership.

    Includes a recommendation to not use the option for special cohorts, many of the listed ones aren’t really appropriate for the campaign.


    This is a "strict" reading of the evolution of these issues.
    Duane Eggert

  8. #8
    Athos,
    Good point. Great Leader already requires 9 ranks in Lead and it adds +2 to the Leadership score. Heheh, I just see the logic in gettin the military cohorts from the Leadership feat requireing 9 ranks of lead. Though, 9 ranks wouldnt really be needed to get the feat itself.


    irdeggman,
    Ah Chapter 8, why didn't you say they were Variants? Heheh, i think thats a Key word right there... Variant. They are alternatives in the first place.

    If you have a decent size realm you will need a lot more Lieutenants than what your Cha mod would be. A spymaster, a marshal/general, a chamberlain, an admiral (unless land locked), a warden, huntsman, justicar, engineer, maybe an assassin and then some emissaries and spys...

    heheh, they can really add up.

    I would see the first variant listed there as a possiblity really, allowing regents to take Leadership at 1st level. Of all the variants its the only one that would make the most sense.

    One other thing, If we are trying to Follow 3.5 in the rest of the revised BRCS, why should we follow 3.0 with regard to the Leadership feat? Doesnt make sense...

    DMG has the Leadership feat available at 6th level. This feat includes attracting cohorts (with level based upon leadership score). Cohorts, after initial level do not have a level limit based upon character’s level – but they only gain half exp points. Leadership feat also includes gaining followers, which is roughly the same as the old men-at-arms/body guards. There doesn’t seem to be a limit to the number of cohorts a character can attract.

    The Exp gained has changed a bit now in 3.5 and uses a formula:

    Cohorts earn XP as follows:
    The cohort does not count as a party member when determining the party’s XP.

    Divide the cohort’s level by the level of the PC with whom he or she is associated (the character with the Leadership feat who attracted the cohort).

    Multiply this result by the total XP awarded to the PC and add that number of experience points to the cohort’s total.

    If a cohort gains enough XP to bring it to a level one lower than the associated PC’s character level, the cohort does not gain the new level—its new XP total is 1 less than the amount needed attain the next level.


    What? no limit to the number of Cohorts in the DMG!? heh, you kiddin? it only allows you to get 1 cohort... it refers to it as "a cohort" in the description, not cohorts.

    Note that the DMG specifies that these followers are warriors, experts or commoners. If a regent chooses not to purchase the feat then he doesn’t gain bodyguards or Lieutenants.
    There is a variant in the Epic book that is rather cool also, Followers of adept or aristocrat are count as followers +2 levels higher, ie level 6 follower = level 4 adept. If they follower has a PC class, it counts as +3 level higher, ie Level 6 Follower = 3rd level Fighter. If the follower has a prestiege class it counts as +5 levels higher, ie level 11 Follower = 5th level rogue/ 1st level assassin, this last one obviously only applies to Epic Leadership.

    Well as the regent can still hire bodyguards and Lieutenants and without the Leadership feat he just wont get them at 1/2 cost or free, its not really a big deal.


    The make up of the followers is detailed in the For the DM Chapter under bodyguards. Followers are always of the same race as regent. Half elves may choose whether their followers are human (of their parent’s race), elf or other half elves – can’t mix humans with elves and half elves, but can mix elves and half elves.

    Cohorts are Lieutenants and the terms are interchangeable.

    Maximum number of Lieutenants (cohorts) a regent may have at any time is one plus his charisma modifier.

    Use the regent’s effective character level as his level for determining his leadership score.
    It seems that you have left out the military unit as a cohort, which is the real benefit and not getting a few Lieutenants without having to pay them.

    Also, havent we already gotten well past this idea that scion levels are actual character levels under the Sanctioned Ch 2? And Leadership uses the character levels, so this is not an issue now.


    Ok, all that aside now, I would support what you just proposed as keeping it as variants in Ch 8 of the BRCS.
    "Who was the first that forged the deadly blade? Of rugged steel his savage soul was made." --Tibullus

    "Qui desiderat pacem praeparet bellum." --Vegetius

    "Men grow tired of sleep, love, singing and dancing sooner than war." --Homer

  9. #9
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    Originally posted by tcharazazel@Jun 7 2004, 12:42 PM
    Athos,
    Good point. Great Leader already requires 9 ranks in Lead and it adds +2 to the Leadership score. Heheh, I just see the logic in gettin the military cohorts from the Leadership feat requireing 9 ranks of lead. Though, 9 ranks wouldnt really be needed to get the feat itself.
    Well then... If Great Leader shows a large scale, and Leadership is more of a personal scale, then why not tie the ability to have a Military Cohort to the Great Leader Feat, and leave Leadership to its published DMG 3.5 writeup?
    "It may be better to be a live jackal than a dead lion, but it is better still to be a live lion -- and usually easier."

    - R. A. Heinlien, from The Collected works of Lazarus Long

  10. #10
    That would be an easy solution and as it would require the Leadership feat to be any use to someone its not much of a change in the power of the feat. heh
    "Who was the first that forged the deadly blade? Of rugged steel his savage soul was made." --Tibullus

    "Qui desiderat pacem praeparet bellum." --Vegetius

    "Men grow tired of sleep, love, singing and dancing sooner than war." --Homer

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