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  1. #1
    Bryan Palmer
    Guest

    Lieutenants - follow up (long)

    After reading the many responses to my question regarding the use of
    lieutenants I think it only fair to discuss the reason for my inquiry.

    When I started my Birthright campaign, approximately two years ago, one
    of the first concerns to emerge was the misuse of vassals/lieutenants by
    the PC regents. Most of my player characters (5 in all) are what I
    would characterize as "math wizards." They have a tendency to over
    quantify or numerically manipulate every character or situation so as to
    minimize all danger and maximize every characteristic to their favor
    (Yeah the old problem of "min and maxing"). I saw the Birthright
    setting as a means to control this zealousness by placing each PC in
    political and economic situations requiring a great deal more personal
    creativity.

    The main regent character (developed as the regent of Tuornen) quickly
    discerned the benefits of using lieutenants, and set out on a quest to
    acquire as many as possible. Using the rules as a guideline, I quickly
    limited his number of lieutenants to the total number of henchmen
    available per his charisma score. Then he went after vassals. This was
    much easier to control due to the limited amount of blooded individuals
    within the population (Based on 1% or less).

    Even with these limitations he was able to accomplish many more actions
    than I, as the DM, felt was reasonable to accomplish in such short time
    periods. This also put an extra burden on me to be fair with the amount
    of actions that could be accomplished by all NPC regents. My perception
    at that time was that the pace of the game was getting far too
    accelerated. So I developed the following guidelines for my PCs:


    Vassal: A blooded regent-character who has sworn some type of allegiance
    to another regent. In most cases this has involved a ceremony of
    investiture where the vassal has given up the majority of his regency to
    his overlord, such as with the Count of Taeghas, a wizard who has sworn
    an alliance of fealty to Prince Avan in return for Avan's protection, or
    the vassal is gaining regency from his overlord, such as the case of
    Torin (the primary regent character) turning over regency to a blooded
    character to rule a portion of his kingdom.

    Lieutenant: A blooded or non-blooded character who has a position of
    high authority for a powerful character. Most lieutenants are
    non-blooded while their rulers are blooded. The character can be a
    Scion (blooded), not be receiving regency, and still be a lieutenant.

    Thus we see that a character can be both
    a vassal and lieutenant. The character that usually denotes the
    difference between the two is the receipt of regency. To be a vassal
    one has to receive some amount of regency (or in game terms - have a
    connection with the land, religion, or guild that gives the regency).
    While being a lieutenant requires only service to a higher authority.
    Both categories have both positive and negative aspects.

    The vassal provides he/her liege lord
    with the greatest power in terms of domain actions. A vassal also has
    the right to take three domain actions every domain turn (one per
    month). This gives the liege lord the ability to accomplish much in his
    or her domain. However, a vassal has much more autonomy that a mere
    lieutenant. A baron has more room in regards to carrying out orders and
    making decisions with regards to his Duke wishes than the Duke's
    captain. Vassals have been known to become quite powerful and often
    turn on their lords to gain greater power. Vassals also have the same
    abilities in regards to character actions and free actions as any other
    regent (one character action per month and as many free actions as the
    DM finds reasonable).

    The lieutenant gives his/her liege lord
    much more loyalty. These people are entrusted to the service of their
    lord and are usually quite willing to give everything they have to serve
    him/her. If they are a vassal-lieutenant and are not receiving regency
    (link to the land, religion, guild, or source) or are unblooded, they do
    not have the ability to perform domain actions. They may, however,
    perform one character action per month and as many free actions as the
    DM finds reasonable.


    This is only a small portion of the letter I wrote for the PCs (I went
    into greater description of the criteria to denote a lieutenant and who
    would or wouldn't be tagged with that title) but I believe you can see
    that I put a pretty severe limitation on unblooded lieutenants or
    vassal-lieutenants not receiving regency by not allowing them to perform
    domain actions. After reading your various suggestions I have begun to
    wonder if I overacted and eliminated some hefty benefits for my PCs.

    I was wondering if Ed or Carrie had any particular thoughts on this
    matter? It would be interesting to hear if this was a problem in the
    original play-testing phase.



    "Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines."

    Bryan Palmer
    Arizona State University
    Bryan.Palmer@ASU.EDU

  2. #2
    Mark A Vandermeulen
    Guest

    Lieutenants - follow up (long)

    On Thu, 19 Mar 1998, Bryan Palmer wrote:

    > Thus we see that a character can be both
    > a vassal and lieutenant. The character that usually denotes the
    > difference between the two is the receipt of regency. To be a vassal
    > one has to receive some amount of regency (or in game terms - have a
    > connection with the land, religion, or guild that gives the regency).
    > While being a lieutenant requires only service to a higher authority.
    > Both categories have both positive and negative aspects.

    Am I the only one who enforces the idea that a vassal MUST be an NPC (and
    thus not available for player control as a lieutennant is)? I thought that
    this was a part of the rules, but I may be mistaken. In this case, yes the
    regent theoretically gets an extra three domain turns, but must deal with
    the DM on a give and take basis. Yes, the vassal is theoretically under
    the rule of the lord, but any quick porusual of medieval political history
    gives you an adequate idea of how well that works in actual practice (i.e.
    about as long as its in the vassal's best interests).
    To provide a gaming example, the Roesone DS mentions that Marlae
    Roesone has a trusted "great captain" named Isilviere (I forget his first
    name because I'm dealing with his son now). My PC playing Roesone decided
    to make Isilviere his lieutennant, and later his vassal of the province of
    Fairfield. Now, my question is, if Isilviere thought that he had a bum rap
    from the Regent (and his son, in my game, feels that way), what is to keep
    him from swearing a NEW vassalage agreement with Ghoere, thus transfering
    not only his loyalty, but also his province, to the control of Ghoere. Now
    if a state religion had been named, such a new vassalage investiture spell
    would have to be cast by the state religion, but in my game Roesone never
    actually declared the Impregnible Heart as the state religion. Risks such
    as this might serve to greatly DEvalue the benefits offered by creating
    vassalage agreements (although it might be best, and most interesting
    game-wise, to let the players discover such risks the hard way).

    Mark VanderMeulen
    vander+@pitt.edu

  3. #3
    James Ruhland
    Guest

    Lieutenants - follow up (long)

    >
    > Am I the only one who enforces the idea that a vassal MUST be an NPC (and
    > thus not available for player control as a lieutennant is)?
    >
    Why can't a Vassal be a PC, the way Fulgar the Bold is B.A's Vassal in
    Darkstar's PBeM game? IMO, this is much more fun. and, also, having PCs
    play Vassals (especially to other PCs, but even to NPCs, the way Haelynil
    is to Ghoere in Darkstar's PBeM again) is soooo much more fun. Plus, it
    relieves the DM of having to decide how loyal the Vassal is, how well he
    obeys (or disobeys) the Liege, etc; 'cause the other Player will determine
    all that.

  4. #4
    James Ruhland
    Guest

    Lieutenants - follow up (long)

    Regarding the below: Nothing but loyalty. Thus one has to be careful who
    one selects as a Vassal. They may rebel, with (or without) the support of
    other powers, at any time. IMO, I like Lawful (and not Evil) Vassals, and
    especially ones that are related to me by blood. That's no guarantee,
    though. Anyone who's studied history will be able to give an unlimited
    number of examples of "loyal" Vassals (brothers even, and other relatives)
    who rebelled against their liege. But IMO it's less likely than if you pick
    the first blooded slag you happen to hire as a Lt and make him your Vassal,
    and then expect long-term, servile Loyalty.
    Oh, and treat these guys with respect, or even the LG types will decide
    you are unworthy of their loyalty.

    > Fairfield. Now, my question is, if Isilviere thought that he had a bum
    rap
    > from the Regent (and his son, in my game, feels that way), what is to
    keep
    > him from swearing a NEW vassalage agreement with Ghoere, thus transfering
    > not only his loyalty, but also his province, to the control of Ghoere.

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