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  1. #1
    Kowanga
    Guest

    Grant or Loan ??

    Playing Birthright a question surged. The regent made an agreement with me,
    The Court Mage, he would muster armies (with my gold) and then loan them to
    me, so I could make a exploration. The question is..
    is this a loan (with diplomacy, or without it ?), or is it a grant like my
    DM says. ???
    What do you think about it ?
    IMO it is a loan without need of diplomacy because he just lets that I
    command the troops for a while.

  2. #2
    James Ruhland
    Guest

    Grant or Loan ??

    Seems like the main point of contention here is: is a Diplo action needed
    or not? IMO, that depends more on the relationship that existed with your
    Regent & the Mage in question. IMO, if he was already your Court Mage, and
    had a close, ongoing relationship/alliance with your character, then I
    wouldn't require a Diplomatic Action in either case (I.E. it wouldn't
    matter if it was a Grant or a "loan"; actually, technically, I think it's a
    Grant no matter what: he Grants you the troops (Grant is a free action),
    then when you're done borrowing them, you Grant them back).
    Diplo actions, IMO, are tools for establishing, strengthening (or
    weakening. . .) relationships with neighboring realms. I don't usually
    think they're required when you're dealing with Vassals or folks you have a
    already strong relationship (I.E. the Court Mage; especially if he spends a
    lot of time in your Court). Making Diplo actions a requirement for a whole
    bunch of activities tends to cut down on inter-realm interaction ('cause
    players would rather spend their precious 3 Actions per turn +1 Lt action
    on some misguided scheme or another). Since this is a role playing game,
    interaction should be encouraged, not penalized.
    (Oh, and don't take this to mean that Diplomacy should be a Free action or
    never required: just that the requirements for it should be somewhat loose,
    not overly strict.)
    >
    > Playing Birthright a question surged. The regent made an agreement with
    me,
    > The Court Mage, he would muster armies (with my gold) and then loan them
    to
    > me, so I could make a exploration. The question is..
    > is this a loan (with diplomacy, or without it ?), or is it a grant like
    my
    > DM says. ???
    > What do you think about it ?
    > IMO it is a loan without need of diplomacy because he just lets that I
    > command the troops for a while.
    >
    >
    >> To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the
    line
    > 'unsubscribe birthright' as the body of the message.

  3. #3
    Robert Harper
    Guest

    Grant or Loan ??

    (see original message below)

    Since my response is a bit long, the short version is: IMHO, somewhere
    along the line a Diplomacy Action was required. Either to do it, or to
    create the relationship that lets you do it without one.

    You need to look at all Regent actions through a lens of "what would this be
    in Domain action terms". I don't allow GB's to change hands without
    examining what the transaction is under the rules, with a bias towards any
    action involving GB's needingt an underlying Domain Action of some sort (if
    you want to convert GB's into cash and use them fine, you've laundered it
    using Finances actions).

    It's very easy to start letting PC regents gain an advantage over NPC's by
    not using up actions on things NPCs would have to use actions on.

    Without the "court mage" status, it clearly seems to be Diplomacy (one
    action, by whoever initiates discussions for the arrangement, automatic
    success if the PC targeted agrees). It is an agreement between regents,
    involving Domain assets being traded about. It looks like a relatively
    'fair' exchange so its not simply a Grant or pair of Grants (GB's one way,
    troops the other).

    If the Mage wanted to do this with an NPC Regent, it would be a Diplomacy
    action to negotiate it. The fact it's a PC gives an easier ride (automatic
    success) but an action should still be required. The best way to regulate
    inter-PC activity to ensure PC's don't get an innate advantage under the
    rules is to do this "substitution" test of saying "if one was an NPC, how
    would it work".

    The real question is can one PC (or NPC) have a status called "court mage"
    that lets them carry on some activities that normally require Domain actions
    without one. I don't see any rules material on the niche of Court Mage, but
    it is implied that the relationship/status is highly individualized - some
    court mages, such as Caliene Llwelyn in Book of Magecraft, have hardly
    anything to do with their Rulers and for them the status seems pretty
    nominal. At the other end of the scale, you could have a Ruler with a
    Wizard Lietenant he made his Court Mage.

    Presumably the Ruler PC has not made the Court Mage PC a Lieutenant (which
    an NPC court mage might be, depending on how much energy he devoted to realm
    interests) - nor is the Court Mage PC being counted as one for action or
    lifetime # of ltns.

    I suggest the status of "Court Mage" is unique to each relationship (i.e.
    what exactly it entails on both sides) and is created through a negotiation
    which sets up what each regent is committing. This requires using a Domain
    Action - Diplomacy. If the agreement noted that exchanges of resources and
    efforts for mutual benefit would take place (reasonable expectation) then
    subsequent deals of the sort you outline would not require additional Domain
    actions.

    The agreement provides a bit of roleplaying opportunity and can also
    regulate use of NPC court mage or an NPC ruler's demands on a PC Court Mage
    (i.e., don't you remember you agreed that you would attend at all Festivals,
    State Weddings and Diplomatic Summits to use your magical abilities on the
    Ruler's behalf?). I think this is also realisticly "feudal" in terms of a
    quasi-contractual approach.

    If it was just "sure Bob, your character can be my Court Mage", then that is
    simply a near-meaningless title (at best given using a Decree), and I would
    still require some Diplomacy for GB/domain asset transfers.

    >Playing Birthright a question surged. The regent made an agreement with me,
    >The Court Mage, he would muster armies (with my gold) and then loan them to
    >me, so I could make a exploration. The question is..
    >is this a loan (with diplomacy, or without it ?), or is it a grant like my
    >DM says. ???
    >What do you think about it ?
    >IMO it is a loan without need of diplomacy because he just lets that I
    >command the troops for a while.
    >
    >
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  4. #4
    Trizt
    Guest

    Grant or Loan ??

    On 14-Mar-98, Kowanga (kowanga@mindless.com) wrote about [BIRTHRIGHT] - Grant
    or Loan ??:
    - ->Playing Birthright a question surged. The regent made an agreement with me,
    - ->The Court Mage, he would muster armies (with my gold) and then loan them to
    - ->me, so I could make a exploration. The question is..
    - ->is this a loan (with diplomacy, or without it ?), or is it a grant like my
    - ->DM says. ???
    - ->What do you think about it ?
    - ->IMO it is a loan without need of diplomacy because he just lets that I
    - ->command the troops for a while.

    If you are the regents court mage, then there is no need for diplomancy, it's
    a simple agreemnet between you two.

    If the troops are cloathed in the regents arms and uses his standard for the
    army, then it's a loan. This put's you in a weaker situation, the regent can
    call on the army when he wants without you can stop it from leaving you
    expidition.

    If the troops don't carry anything which symbolies the regent, then it's a
    grant from the regent to you to muster armed forces.

    //Trizt of Ward^RITE

    -

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