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  1. #1
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    Least Favorite - FR

    >We went over this very topic on Greytalk awhile back. And most everyone
    >there pretty much felt this was an evil influence from the FR that all good
    >AD&Ders should ignore completely. I was rather shocked they didn't do this
    >nonsense in BR quite frankly. And very, very happy. So if you do have
    >mortal elves in your game, dig out an old DMG and the age tables for elves
    >therein.

    Is it just me, or does everyone on this list hate/dislike the Forgotten
    Realms?

    Don't get me wrong, I also agree that they are rightfully forgotten (to borrow
    from a comment someone else made a short while back.)

  2. #2
    Galwylin
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    Least Favorite - FR

    On 12 Mar 98 at 3:07, Samuel Weiss wrote:

    You're completely right. Settings should not follow suit of other
    settings because it's the cool thing to do at the time. They should
    maintain their own flavor when they have it. Greyhawk was created as
    the generic AD&D setting and it remains that. It remains subject to
    the changes of the core rules because of that. I have no idea why it
    was decided that the elves of Oerth would follow suit as the elves of
    Toril. Greyhawk should have it's own presence enough to with stand
    that from happening. And the truth is, it doesn't. When it is
    released again later this year, it will have it's chance to make
    itself special in some way as the Realms, Cerilia, Krynn, etc.
    have. It your whole response you didn't state one grace of Greyhawk
    other than what it's not. That's just not enough to sell anyone on
    it. And keeping those said 'newbies' away are exactly why TSR is on
    the edge of going under. No matter what you want for a setting it
    has to appeal to new players and your desire to keep them out only
    dooms the company and eventually Greyhawk.

    The Birthright setting has done the same as the Realms in taking the
    different races and making them special with in it. They're
    different from any other settings in substance, history and beliefs.
    Sure, the elves are being pushed back but that has become standard
    for the race it seems but they've change the way they approach the
    magic of Cerilia completely different from the generic elf that you
    are promoting. You mock the halflings of Athas but they've
    left enough of an impression that you didn't need to mention the
    setting for people to know your reference. I hope that Birthright
    gains the following it should so that mention of the Cerilian
    halflings will make the same possible. Maybe if Greyhawk fans hadn't
    depended on one voice so much that the setting could have survived
    after his departure. It's coming back with a new voice but I doubt
    it will be enough to secure it's continual publishment. People like
    you won't let it not if it means having to make the setting
    attractive to others and 'newbies'. I would urge the designers of
    Birthright to go with what they think is right and design not to be
    different but to design with heart and true intent. That's where
    they will find success for the setting. It took me awhile to
    discover Birthright through word of mouth about it's advantages
    not what it wasn't. I hope Greyhawk can survive the same way. If it
    depends on 'the Realms suck, try this' then I imagine we will be
    witness to its death again in 1999.

    > In reply to this, as well as James Ruhland referring to it as a "nefarious
    > Tolkien influence", when AD&D started, elves lived a long time, died, and
    > moved on to the outer planes. Then the FR came along. And there, the elves
    > went sailing away into the moonset. Which I did not particularly care about
    > one way or the other. I did not play FR. Then all of a sudden, the Complete
    > Book of Elves comes out, and all elves are doing this wander off bit. And
    > then, horror of horrors, FtA comes out, and now the GH elves are retreating
    > as well! It becomes a fault, and something to be mocked Galwylin, when it
    > starts to interfere with a setting I have come to know and enjoy. How would
    > anyone on this list feel if tomorrow it was decreed that henceforth all
    > halflings were Kender? Or cannibalistic? Or as has been mentioned regarding
    > the city watch and innkeepers, that they are all 10th+ level? Those things
    > are not part of this setting, and a good way for TSR to ruin the BR setting
    > would be to import somethign from another game line just so everything can
    > be the same. Major case in point: GDW converts Megatraveller to their
    > Twilight:2000, et. al. house system and it goes nowhere. What if TSR
    > decided everything would be SAGA system from now on? IF I want to play in
    > the FR, I will buy it, and play it. I don't. And I don't want to see the
    > things that make that setting unique (for bad or worse) coming over to any
    > others. Which is why a lot of GHers don't like PS or RL either. Both of
    > those settings almost demand such campaign mixing which in the end does
    > nothing but destroy all the settings involved.
    > And granted, we mock the FR constantly. Mostly because it is so easy, and
    > so very antithetical to the GH spirit. We don't want any newbies thinking
    > they are closely related simply because they are both AD&D. It would be
    > like confusing (insert music type A) with (insert music type B). And if
    > they want to mock us stodgy old-timers, living in the past, let them. It is
    > their right. As long as they keep their elves to themselves.

    ____________________________________
    This has been a Galwylinc Production

    galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972)
    http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/

  3. #3
    Galwylin
    Guest

    Least Favorite - FR

    At 08:44 PM 3/11/98 -0600, you wrote:
    >
    >Is it just me, or does everyone on this list hate/dislike the Forgotten
    >Realms?
    >
    >Don't get me wrong, I also agree that they are rightfully forgotten (to
    borrow
    >from a comment someone else made a short while back.)

    Not everyone hates the Realms. In fact, I hardly see reason to bring other
    settings into a discussion of one except where you've adapted or used one
    product from another. It doesn't speak well of one setting to have to cut
    down another to lift it up. That's one problem I have with the Greytalk
    list. Birthright has lots of things going for it and it debases it (and
    the industry in general) to rely on the faults of another to point them
    out. Makes you wonder how good it can be if the only way to show its
    virtue to show what it's not. I hope this doesn't happen here as it has on
    other lists. It detracts from the setting and makes the posters look
    childish.

    _____________________________________
    This has been a Galwylin© Production

    galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972)
    http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/

  4. #4
    Brett Lang
    Guest

    Least Favorite - FR

    My groups ( I am the DM) have been playing in the realms most of our career
    with the occasional jaunt to realmspace and the planes for like the last 10
    years. We find the realms to be a good mix of wildnerness and civilzation,
    maybe a little to much magic (but hey, that's not to bad) and a great cast
    of supporting NPC's. All in all we find it a joy to adventure there. And
    yes, some elves due migrate to Evermeet, a large isle about a 1,000 miles
    of the coast to escape the encroaching human influence.

    However, I must say that birthright is a fantastic game world. I love the
    fact that magic and wizards are RARE. Magical items are even rarer, and
    that it is more of a SWORDS & sorcery world rather than a swords & SORCERY
    world as is the Realms. I also agree with some of you as to your outlook
    on elves as they are more tolkein. Taller, immortal, etc.. I like them
    not having infravision and having ultravision instead. They are more a
    faerie race, and this a love ! Also the dwarves, there more an earch's
    children kjind of people. All in all, it's just really cool !

    The only hassle is incorperating Realms Ruling with adventuring, especially
    when more than one PC has a regent. I've found its a lot easier to
    incorprate the PC's into an adventure when one of the PC's is the regent,
    had the others rule province's and guilds within that PC's Realm.

    Anyway, that's my two bits worth !

    Sweet water and light laughter until next !
    Warlock.

    - ----------
    > From: Galwylin
    > To: birthright@MPGN.COM
    > Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Least Favorite - FR
    > Date: Thursday, 12 March 1998 11:08
    >
    > At 08:44 PM 3/11/98 -0600, you wrote:
    > >
    > >Is it just me, or does everyone on this list hate/dislike the Forgotten
    > >Realms?
    > >
    > >Don't get me wrong, I also agree that they are rightfully forgotten (to
    > borrow
    > >from a comment someone else made a short while back.)
    >
    > Not everyone hates the Realms. In fact, I hardly see reason to bring
    other
    > settings into a discussion of one except where you've adapted or used one
    > product from another. It doesn't speak well of one setting to have to
    cut
    > down another to lift it up. That's one problem I have with the Greytalk
    > list. Birthright has lots of things going for it and it debases it (and
    > the industry in general) to rely on the faults of another to point them
    > out. Makes you wonder how good it can be if the only way to show its
    > virtue to show what it's not. I hope this doesn't happen here as it has
    on
    > other lists. It detracts from the setting and makes the posters look
    > childish.
    >
    > _____________________________________
    > This has been a Galwylin© Production
    >
    > galwylin@airnet.net (ICQ #6755972)
    > http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/
    >
    >> To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the
    line
    > 'unsubscribe birthright' as the body of the message.

  5. #5
    James Ruhland
    Guest

    Least Favorite - FR

    >
    > Is it just me, or does everyone on this list hate/dislike the Forgotten
    > Realms?
    >
    I don't know. . .let me put it this way; I bought the original FR set
    almost immediately after it came out, and was highly impressed with it. I
    bought all the Gazetters & other accessories also, and all was well with
    the world. Even at the start it had a tendancy towards lots of powerful
    characters, but at first, far from thinking this a weakness, I thought it a
    strength.
    Then, slowly at first but with increasing speed, the powerful evil/enemy
    NPCs/forces/organizations fell, and increasing numbers of powerful NPC
    heros arose. The FR is now shaped almost entirely by forces out of the
    control of DM's & their players, and if the current trend continues, I'm
    not sure what oportunities for adventure will exist, because Elminster, the
    Harpers, the Seven Sisters, etc. etc. ad infinatum will have slain every
    villian & solved every problem.
    So, I hate not the FR, but what it's become.

    > Don't get me wrong, I also agree that they are rightfully forgotten (to
    borrow
    > from a comment someone else made a short while back.)
    >> To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the
    line
    > 'unsubscribe birthright' as the body of the message.

  6. #6
    Sythryc
    Guest

    Least Favorite - FR

    you know i think the best way to handle a group where the regents all
    adventure together isto have the gorgon, or his lieutenant or significant
    other, pull a suprise rampage or have other drastic anti-life crisis arise
    where they all must join together. i always did like the king arthur
    approach, round table alliance (catchy phrase huh?) is birthright campaigns in
    past.

  7. #7
    Samuel Weiss
    Guest

    Least Favorite - FR

    >Not everyone hates the Realms. In fact, I hardly see reason to bring
    other
    settings into a discussion of one except where you've adapted or used one
    product from another. It doesn't speak well of one setting to have to cut
    down another to lift it up. That's one problem I have with the Greytalk
    list. Birthright has lots of things going for it and it debases it (and
    the industry in general) to rely on the faults of another to point them
    out. Makes you wonder how good it can be if the only way to show its
    virtue to show what it's not. I hope this doesn't happen here as it has on
    other lists. It detracts from the setting and makes the posters look
    childish.<

    In reply to this, as well as James Ruhland referring to it as a "nefarious
    Tolkien influence", when AD&D started, elves lived a long time, died, and
    moved on to the outer planes. Then the FR came along. And there, the elves
    went sailing away into the moonset. Which I did not particularly care about
    one way or the other. I did not play FR. Then all of a sudden, the Complete
    Book of Elves comes out, and all elves are doing this wander off bit. And
    then, horror of horrors, FtA comes out, and now the GH elves are retreating
    as well! It becomes a fault, and something to be mocked Galwylin, when it
    starts to interfere with a setting I have come to know and enjoy. How would
    anyone on this list feel if tomorrow it was decreed that henceforth all
    halflings were Kender? Or cannibalistic? Or as has been mentioned regarding
    the city watch and innkeepers, that they are all 10th+ level? Those things
    are not part of this setting, and a good way for TSR to ruin the BR setting
    would be to import somethign from another game line just so everything can
    be the same. Major case in point: GDW converts Megatraveller to their
    Twilight:2000, et. al. house system and it goes nowhere. What if TSR
    decided everything would be SAGA system from now on? IF I want to play in
    the FR, I will buy it, and play it. I don't. And I don't want to see the
    things that make that setting unique (for bad or worse) coming over to any
    others. Which is why a lot of GHers don't like PS or RL either. Both of
    those settings almost demand such campaign mixing which in the end does
    nothing but destroy all the settings involved.
    And granted, we mock the FR constantly. Mostly because it is so easy, and
    so very antithetical to the GH spirit. We don't want any newbies thinking
    they are closely related simply because they are both AD&D. It would be
    like confusing (insert music type A) with (insert music type B). And if
    they want to mock us stodgy old-timers, living in the past, let them. It is
    their right. As long as they keep their elves to themselves.

    Samwise

  8. #8
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    Least Favorite - FR

    - --------------FCAEFF8B2D2C5143698446B6
    Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

    Personally, I have nothing against FR, although I did bag it a little
    when it first came out, thinking TSR had willingly chosen it over GH.
    I have never played in the region, though I have read some of the
    material that is available for it. No, I am not fond of the large
    number of Mages that are in it, but if I chosen to DM a campaign there I
    would limit these people to a large degree. I like some of the
    personalities, and I like the layout of some of the regions.

    Elves? Never played one. The closest I ever came was a half-elf, but I
    do believe that it makes for a better game (like BR) when they are
    distant from one another, and elves are much more secretive. When two
    large socities (nations) come together for the first time, it is quite
    natural for them to try and whipe one another out - as with the elves
    and humans in BR. I think elves work better when they are a mystety,
    much like in LOTR.
    -

  9. #9
    James Ruhland
    Guest

    Least Favorite - FR

    > be the same. Major case in point: GDW converts Megatraveller to their
    > Twilight:2000, et. al. house system and it goes nowhere.
    >
    Well, 1st Traveller was converted to Megatraveller, which was ok I guess,
    after a fashion. I prolly shouldn't get into it.

    > And granted, we mock the FR constantly. Mostly because it is so easy, and
    > so very antithetical to the GH spirit. We don't want any newbies thinking
    > they are closely related simply because they are both AD&D.
    >
    Hmmmn. . .I also point out what I think are flaws in the way the FR has
    gone because I know TSR people read the lists. I'm hoping that my rants,
    and other people's more reasoned arguments, will encourage them to keep BR
    on the path it's currently on. Other TSR Gameworlds (I.E. Athas/DarkSun)
    started off well, too, only to succumb to the same kind of flaws (all the
    heroic stuff done offstage, through novels, by NPC heros). I'm hoping,
    praying, and voting with my dollar, that BR won't go that route.
    So far things look good; but things looked good at 1st in both the FR & DS
    worlds, too.

  10. #10
    James Ruhland
    Guest

    Least Favorite - FR

    > have. It your whole response you didn't state one grace of Greyhawk
    > other than what it's not. That's just not enough to sell anyone on
    > it.
    >
    Hmmmn. . .I could say some good things about Greyhawk. It and thouse old
    Judges Guild mapsets were my 1st packaged campaign worlds. Greyhawk does
    have it's own richness, it's own flavor. Heck, I remember when the whole
    Giants/Drow/Loth series came out (and not the G1-3/D1-3 stuff, the original
    junk, which I still have and love). Lots of the stuff you might think of
    being "Faerunean" (FR) really had it's roots in GH (Drow, for one).

    > are promoting. You mock the halflings of Athas but they've
    > left enough of an impression that you didn't need to mention the
    > setting for people to know your reference.
    >
    I don't think he was mocking them. . .I suppose I should re-read; his
    statement was that if all Halflings became Kender, or canibals, on all
    gameworlds, that would be bad. This doesn't mean that the Halflings of
    Athas were being derided, just that having variations from gameworld to
    gameworld is good.

    Re. Elves, and the FR: I have, for example, the Evermeet accessory, and
    it's very cool. FR elves aren't horrid. But IMO that accessory also points
    out the weakness of the setting. IMO, not much oportunity for adventure on
    Evermeet unless you're actively opposing the elven nation.

    the Seven Sisters was also a exceptionally well-written, highly detailed
    accessory. But unless I'm running a campaign with evil PCs, or where the
    PCs need a whole lot of help/support, most of that info is rather wasted. I
    mean, it's one thing to have Alustriel (my personal fav. of the 7) give the
    PCs a mission (adventure) and have 'em carry it out; but for that we don't
    really need a complete NPC description of her as if she'll be used in
    combat etc. I donno. It's late and I'm ranting I'm sure. (heck, I like
    Alustriel so much I'd like to *be* her, or emulate her, or marry her, or
    something. But if I'm a PC in a game, I don't really want her and her
    sisters to come solve every problem for me. I wanna be the one to defeat
    the villian.)

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