Everybodys Favorte: Elves

[relve@Otdk.Helsinki.F]

> > Uhm, no. The BoP says elves can invest whenever they want to,
without
> > the investiture spell. It has to do with their connection to the
> > land. They occupy the land and simply decide "This is mine" and
> > presto! It is. Something like that, anyways. They don't need priests
> > to invest.
>
> Its not in the main book, hence its optional. Im not using it, cause
> I find it stupid. The priestly investiture is more than a tie to the
> land. Its the gods saying 'you may rule'.

I am afraid, I have to disagree. It would upset the game
balance unless you included a house rule that makes transferring
elven domains more feasible for elves (like elven shamans in Netbook)
Otherwise it would become really difficult for elves to hold their
domains together (in long run, of course, and keeping in mind that
"manipulating" with RP's (i.e. giving them for somene else) is rather
important in "poor" (in terms of GB's collected) elven domains.

BTW, the BoP also allows guilds and source holdings to be transferred
without the investiture spell. (I personnaly do not like and use this
rule.)

Kaarel

[Pinochet]

- -----Original Message-----
From: wooz
To: birthright@MPGN.COM
Date: Wednesday, March 11, 1998 3:39 AM
Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Everybodys Favorte: Elves


> That's exactly why I like the taller elves better, while I may not have
>started reading Tolkeing until after D&D had been released, it wasn't THAT
>much after. I'm glad to hear that someone at TSR agrees.


Well, if it makes you feel any better, AFAIK, the only short elves are in
the
PHB, the ones in DS tall, FR tall, DL tall(or at least not short), BR,
already
covered......now what I REALLY hate in the PHB is the way elves seems to
go to a land far across the oceans or something instead of die of old age..
UGGH!!! Immortal, ok, long-lived ok, but this? NO!NO!NO!NO!

[James Ruhland]

>
> BTW, the BoP also allows guilds and source holdings to be transferred
> without the investiture spell. (I personnaly do not like and use this
> rule.)
>
N.B. don't forget that in all cases (Elven Investiture, Guild & Source
Investiture), an Investiture Action is still needed. The only thing that is
dispensed with is the priest/temple ceremony & Investiture spell. IMO, this
is reasonable.

[LordSchmit]

>now what I REALLY hate in the PHB is the way elves seems to
>go to a land far across the oceans or something instead of die of old age..
>UGGH!!! Immortal, ok, long-lived ok, but this? NO!NO!NO!NO!

Don't the FR elves go off to Evermeet or where ever? (I know very little about
the Realms, but I read that somewhere). FR seems to be the only AD&D published
world that goes by that "go away to a far off island instead of dying" thing
the PHB says elves do.

[Samuel Weiss]

>now what I REALLY hate in the PHB is the way elves seems to
go to a land far across the oceans or something instead of die of old age..
UGGH!!! Immortal, ok, long-lived ok, but this? NO!NO!NO!NO!<

We went over this very topic on Greytalk awhile back. And most everyone
there pretty much felt this was an evil influence from the FR that all good
AD&Ders should ignore completely. I was rather shocked they didn't do this
nonsense in BR quite frankly. And very, very happy. So if you do have
mortal elves in your game, dig out an old DMG and the age tables for elves
therein.

Samwise

[James Ruhland]

Agreed. Actually, this is a nefarious Tolkien influence, not so much a FR
influence, this "we don't die, we just sail off to an unknown
continent/plane". IMO, Cerilian Imortality & the old DMG age tables are
sooo much more preferable. (I'm saying, in my long winded way, that I agree
with you).
>
> We went over this very topic on Greytalk awhile back. And most everyone
> there pretty much felt this was an evil influence from the FR that all
good
> AD&Ders should ignore completely. I was rather shocked they didn't do
this
> nonsense in BR quite frankly. And very, very happy. So if you do have
> mortal elves in your game, dig out an old DMG and the age tables for
elves
> therein.

[Gary V. Foss]

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James Ruhland wrote:

> Agreed. Actually, this is a nefarious Tolkien influence, not so much a FR
> influence, this "we don't die, we just sail off to an unknown
> continent/plane". IMO, Cerilian Imortality & the old DMG age tables are
> sooo much more preferable. (I'm saying, in my long winded way, that I agree
> with you).
> >
> > We went over this very topic on Greytalk awhile back. And most everyone
> > there pretty much felt this was an evil influence from the FR that all
> good
> > AD&Ders should ignore completely. I was rather shocked they didn't do
> this
> > nonsense in BR quite frankly. And very, very happy. So if you do have
> > mortal elves in your game, dig out an old DMG and the age tables for
> elves
> > therein.

The fact that the beginning of this thread coincides with Aaron Spelling's bid
to get The New Loveboat on the air seems proof that there is some strange
karmic relationship between high art, high elves and high ratings....

Anyway, as far as elves sailing off into the West is concerned. I think
Tolkien meant is as more of a retirement kind of concept rather than as a form
of death. Gandalf, Bilbo and Frodo get to go along too, remember? So it can't
be just for elves. Maybe it was just a symbolic way of saying "I don't want to
write about these characters anymore, but I don't have the heart to snuff them,
so I'm going to send them on a long cruise."

It's kind of a cop-out that works much more effectively to end a story than it
does in a RPG.

- -G.

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James Ruhland wrote:
Agreed. Actually, this is a nefarious Tolkien influence,
not so much a FR
influence, this "we don't die, we just sail off to an unknown
continent/plane". IMO, Cerilian Imortality &amp; the old DMG age tables
are
sooo much more preferable. (I'm saying, in my long winded way, that
I agree
with you).
>
> We went over this very topic on Greytalk awhile back. And most everyone
> there pretty much felt this was an evil influence from the FR that
all
good
> AD&amp;Ders should ignore completely. I was rather shocked they didn't
do
this
> nonsense in BR quite frankly. And very, very happy. So if you do
have
> mortal elves in your game, dig out an old DMG and the age tables
for
elves
> therein.
The fact that the beginning of this thread coincides with Aaron Spelling's
bid to get The New Loveboat on the air seems proof that there is
some strange karmic relationship between high art, high elves and high
ratings....

Anyway, as far as elves sailing off into the West is concerned.&nbsp;
I think Tolkien meant is as more of a retirement kind of concept rather
than as a form of death.&nbsp; Gandalf, Bilbo and Frodo get to go along
too, remember?&nbsp; So it can't be just for elves.&nbsp; Maybe it was
just a symbolic way of saying "I don't want to write about these characters
anymore, but I don't have the heart to snuff them, so I'm going to send
them on a long cruise."

It's kind of a cop-out that works much more effectively to end a story
than it does in a RPG.

-G.

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[rad smith]

On Wed, 11 Mar 1998, Brandon Quina wrote:

> I added a 'ghellie Sidhe' action to my game. 15+ to lower the
> population by one code, provided the province is elven occupied
> (ie. by military units).
>
> Thankfully, its never used. Elves perfer diplomacy saying "Please,
> leave this land." than rampant bloodshed.

actually, i would like to see the difference between elven and human
psychology and culture emphasised. i don't see why a completely alien
culture should find itself bound by human ethical values.

i'd prefer elves to be scary and mysterious. and preferably NPCs.

this seems to be partially the whitewolf effect: the moment you put
anything mysterious in a game system people want either to play it, or to
have it quantified within the rule system. the end result of which you
have a gaming world devoid of mystery.



- --
rad

i've got my hand in your head
i've got my hand in your head
and i'm pulling out all of your mind

[Brandon Quina]

> I am afraid, I have to disagree. It would upset the game
> balance unless you included a house rule that makes transferring
> elven domains more feasible for elves (like elven shamans in Netbook)

I give them a way to transfer domains to and from one another. They
can 'step down' and give someone else their domain. Basically, most
'lesser investiture' is allowed. They just cant actually break the
investiture of a blooded human regent. That requires a priestly
affirmation-- and they dont follow gods. They also cant form
vassalage agreements. I decided that was a 'human' thing, and that
elves have no inclination to do so-- thus, they havnt bothered
to develop that 'ability' as it were.

Basically, I *liked* the fact that elves didnt have priests and thus
couldnt invest provinces. They have enough other advantages in terms
of the domain turn (source rating not being affected by provincal,
mainly) that it dosnt really weaken them that much.

I dont see why when the elves have an advantage thats fine, but when
they have something that makes them weaker everybodys like "Ohhh no,
not the elves."

If I was going to let elves invest provinces like a human (well, not
like a human. They wouldnt have priests) I wouldnt give them their
source holdings staying level. I wouldnt have any problem with elven
society relying on level 1 and 2 provinces.

> Otherwise it would become really difficult for elves to hold their
> domains together (in long run, of course, and keeping in mind that
> "manipulating" with RP's (i.e. giving them for somene else) is rather
> important in "poor" (in terms of GB's collected) elven domains.

Thats the shakes. If the elves let someone come in and invest one
of their provinces, there screwed. Ive never had this happen, as the
elves defend their borders fanatically.

It would probally be easier to take back the provinces during its
first couple turns after 'investing' it though.



- --
(lore@tmgbbs.com) \|/// Zzzzzzzzzzzz
Brandon Lance Quina (- -)
ICQ Number: 6809944 ---ooO(_)Ooo---

[Neil Barnes]

On Wed, 11 Mar 1998, Gary V. Foss wrote:
> Maybe it was just a symbolic way of saying "I don't want to write about
> these characters anymore, but I don't have the heart to snuff them,
> so I'm going to send them on a long cruise."
>
> It's kind of a cop-out that works much more effectively to end a story than it
> does in a RPG.

My characters just got married instead...

In tLoTR the characters who cross the sea to Tol Eressa are those with a
touch of the divine. It's a substitute heaven for those who once having
lost their innocence can never regain it. In the forties there wasn't
this pressure to continue reusing popular characters that there is
now...

neil