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Thread: Everybodys Favorte: Elves
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03-12-1998, 08:36 PM #21E GrayGuest
Everybodys Favorte: Elves
- -----Original Message-----
From: LordSchmit
To: birthright@MPGN.COM
Date: Wednesday, March 11, 1998 8:49 AM
Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Everybodys Favorte: Elves
>>now what I REALLY hate in the PHB is the way elves seems to
>>go to a land far across the oceans or something instead of die of old
age..
>>UGGH!!! Immortal, ok, long-lived ok, but this? NO!NO!NO!NO!
>
>Don't the FR elves go off to Evermeet or where ever? (I know very little
about
>the Realms, but I read that somewhere).
Yes, they can go there, but the elves of the FR didn't always, in fact a lot
probably did die of old age....can't recall exactly when Evermeet was
settled, but it wasn't that recent....in any case Tolkein is the one to
blame
not Greenwood.
> FR seems to be the only AD&D published
>world that goes by that "go away to a far off island instead of dying"
thing
>the PHB says elves do.
But that's more of a get away from the horrible humans and live the rest of
our lives in peace thing.
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03-12-1998, 08:39 PM #22E GrayGuest
Everybodys Favorte: Elves
- -----Original Message-----
From: Samuel Weiss
To: birthright@MPGN.COM
Date: Wednesday, March 11, 1998 9:00 AM
Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Everybodys Favorte: Elves
>>now what I REALLY hate in the PHB is the way elves seems to
>go to a land far across the oceans or something instead of die of old age..
>UGGH!!! Immortal, ok, long-lived ok, but this? NO!NO!NO!NO!<
>We went over this very topic on Greytalk awhile back. And most everyone
>there pretty much felt this was an evil influence from the FR that all good
>AD&Ders should ignore completely
The FR? Hmm, Yes, the Elven culture is going away to Evermeet but
I think elves still die of old age normally, they're just trying to escape
humanity and live out their years in peace......besides Tolkein is the one
to blame for the idea, not Greenwood.
>So if you do have
>mortal elves in your game, dig out an old DMG and the age tables for elves
>therein.
Why? There's a perfectly good table in the 2nd Edition PHB, it's just the
little note at the bottom you have to ignore....
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03-12-1998, 10:41 PM #23Mark A VandermeulenGuest
Everybodys Favorte: Elves
On Wed, 11 Mar 1998, Gary V. Foss wrote:
> Anyway, as far as elves sailing off into the West is concerned. I think
> Tolkien meant is as more of a retirement kind of concept rather than as a form
> of death. Gandalf, Bilbo and Frodo get to go along too, remember? So it can't
> be just for elves. Maybe it was just a symbolic way of saying "I don't want to
> write about these characters anymore, but I don't have the heart to snuff them,
> so I'm going to send them on a long cruise."
>
> It's kind of a cop-out that works much more effectively to end a story than it
> does in a RPG.
I don't think it was a cop-out at all. The while point of elves sailing
off to the west (for anyone who actually slogged through the Silmarillion)
is that the West (I can't remember the name) IS heaven. When the elves are
sailing off to the west, they are going to heaven only without dieing
first (like Elijah in the Old Testament). Only elves can do this. The path
to the western land was closed off to humans: they can only get there
through death. I think if it sort of like God taking earth, which was
formerly flat, and making it into a sphere, only part of it was left out,
and that is the part where the elves go: they actually leave the earth and
sail to "heaven" in some sort of mysterious, mystic way. Gandalf could do
this because he wasn't human (he was actually more like a kind of
earth-bound angel), and Frodo could go because he bore the Ring, which
left its mark on him. Samwise appears to have gone the same way, and for
the same reason. The only one who I don't really understand is Gimli,
which the appendix says sailed off to the West with Legolas. Perhaps he
just died in the end, but wanted to go with Legolas his friend for as much
of the way as possible.
Gosh that was fun. I haven't debated Middle-Earth theology in ages. :)
Mark VanderMeulen
vander+@pitt.edu
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03-12-1998, 11:45 PM #24Samuel WeissGuest
Everybodys Favorte: Elves
>I don't think it was a cop-out at all. The while point of elves sailing
off to the west (for anyone who actually slogged through the Silmarillion)
is that the West (I can't remember the name) IS heaven. When the elves are
sailing off to the west, they are going to heaven only without dieing
first (like Elijah in the Old Testament). Only elves can do this. The path
to the western land was closed off to humans: they can only get there
through death. I think if it sort of like God taking earth, which was
formerly flat, and making it into a sphere, only part of it was left out,
and that is the part where the elves go: they actually leave the earth and
sail to "heaven" in some sort of mysterious, mystic way. Gandalf could do
this because he wasn't human (he was actually more like a kind of
earth-bound angel), and Frodo could go because he bore the Ring, which
left its mark on him. Samwise appears to have gone the same way, and for
the same reason. The only one who I don't really understand is Gimli,
which the appendix says sailed off to the West with Legolas. Perhaps he
just died in the end, but wanted to go with Legolas his friend for as much
of the way as possible.
Gosh that was fun. I haven't debated Middle-Earth theology in ages. :)
Mark VanderMeulen
vander+@pitt.edu<
"slogged" through the Silmarillion? Watch youself, that borders on heresy.
The elves were invited to go live with the Valar in the West. They left
because of the Silmarils. They were allowed to go back when they repented
their choice in leaving. Humans were never invited in the first place,
mostly because of their mortality. bear in mind though, that an elf that
dies goes to the Halls of the dead. They don't get brought back to life to
hang out with the other elves and the Valar. Gandalf was more of an avatar
of a Demi-Power, though I suppose you could see that as an earth bound
angel as well. Frodo and Samwise (The greatest character ever) did indeed
get to go to the West along with Bilbo because they were Ringbearers. Gimli
wanted to see Galadriel again, and because of her influence he was able to
get in. It doesn't actuallly say whether Giml kicks off after going over
and seeing her though.
Samwise
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03-13-1998, 03:47 AM #25
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Everybodys Favorte: Elves
>now what I REALLY hate in the PHB is the way elves seems to
>go to a land far across the oceans or something instead of die of old age..
>UGGH!!! Immortal, ok, long-lived ok, but this? NO!NO!NO!NO!
According to the elven handbook, when elves reac venerable age, they feel the
urge to retreat from the mortal world and join the Seldrine in Arvandor. The
intial "go off to a far away land" was meant as a tempory solution to elven
immortality before TSR got around to publishing the elven handbook.
And to reply to lord shade's comment about evermeet, No. Evermeet is the
last kindom of elves left on toril, but when they still reach old age they
leave that plane of existance and journey to meet the Seldrine. That is why
elves have such a strong racial identiy, after they all die they end up in the
same place to be reborn into the next generation.
Thanks for listening, those are my two pences.
Cedyeus
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03-13-1998, 07:41 AM #26Gary V. FossGuest
Everybodys Favorte: Elves
Mark A Vandermeulen wrote:
> On Wed, 11 Mar 1998, Gary V. Foss wrote:
>
> > Anyway, as far as elves sailing off into the West is concerned. I think
> > Tolkien meant is as more of a retirement kind of concept rather than as a form
> > of death. Gandalf, Bilbo and Frodo get to go along too, remember? So it can't
> > be just for elves. Maybe it was just a symbolic way of saying "I don't want to
> > write about these characters anymore, but I don't have the heart to snuff them,
> > so I'm going to send them on a long cruise."
> >
> > It's kind of a cop-out that works much more effectively to end a story than it
> > does in a RPG.
>
> I don't think it was a cop-out at all. The while point of elves sailing
> off to the west (for anyone who actually slogged through the Silmarillion)
> is that the West (I can't remember the name) IS heaven. When the elves are
> sailing off to the west, they are going to heaven only without dieing
> first (like Elijah in the Old Testament). Only elves can do this. The path
> to the western land was closed off to humans: they can only get there
> through death. I think if it sort of like God taking earth, which was
> formerly flat, and making it into a sphere, only part of it was left out,
> and that is the part where the elves go: they actually leave the earth and
> sail to "heaven" in some sort of mysterious, mystic way. Gandalf could do
> this because he wasn't human (he was actually more like a kind of
> earth-bound angel), and Frodo could go because he bore the Ring, which
> left its mark on him. Samwise appears to have gone the same way, and for
> the same reason. The only one who I don't really understand is Gimli,
> which the appendix says sailed off to the West with Legolas. Perhaps he
> just died in the end, but wanted to go with Legolas his friend for as much
> of the way as possible.
>
> Gosh that was fun. I haven't debated Middle-Earth theology in ages. :)
>
> Mark VanderMeulen
> vander+@pitt.edu
Gimli and Legolas were lovers. JOKE! It's a joke! I'm only joking!
OK, maybe my characterization of Tolkien was a little harsh. What I was trying to
say, though, was that sailing off to the West was the kind of thing that works better
in a novel format than in a RPG, so putting it in FR was kind of clumsy, IMO.
- -G.
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