Results 1 to 9 of 9
  1. #1
    Senior Member Beruin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    228
    Downloads
    4
    Uploads
    0
    Well, spell advice once again. I`m a bit baffled by the detect evil spell and the repercussions on clerics. I`m about to pit a paladin of Cuíraecen (a PC) against a neutral evil cleric (NPC) of the same deity. The paladin will almost certainly use its detect evil ability against the cleric at some point. What happens?

    According to the Class description of the Cleric, "A cleric of a chaotic, evil, good, or lawful deity has a particularly powerful aura corresponding to the deity`s alignment". Well does that mean that the cleric has a good aura because his god is good even though he himself is evil? Or if he still has an evil aura how strong is his aura? He is certainly no "cleric of an evil deity", but he is an "evil creature" according to the description of the detect evil spell.



    A few notes: The Core rules do not allow a NE cleric of a CG deity, the 2nd edition Book of priestcraft does allow NE clerics of Cuíraecen and the BRCS does at least allow CE clerics of this god. however the problem also exists for neutral clerics of good or evil deities (do they have an aura?) and vice versa.
    "The empire, long divided, must unite; long united, must divide. Thus it has ever been."
    - The Three Kingdoms, attributed to Luo Guanzhong, c.1330-c.1400

  2. #2
    heh, just give the cleric a ring of mind shielding

    Detect evil will determine him to be evil, because his alignment is evil. As I see it, The bit about the aura of evil from worshiping an evil diety is really just for Chaotic/Lawful/True Neutral clerics. And even then, it wouldnt tell the person casting it if they are evil, so much as if they have a dark gray aura (as oppposed to a neutral cleric following a good diety having a light gray aura and to make it easy, I see black = evil, gray = neutral, white = good).
    "Who was the first that forged the deadly blade? Of rugged steel his savage soul was made." --Tibullus

    "Qui desiderat pacem praeparet bellum." --Vegetius

    "Men grow tired of sleep, love, singing and dancing sooner than war." --Homer

  3. #3
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Posts
    17
    Downloads
    4
    Uploads
    0
    Hmm...

    Interesting.

    I think though that because the NPC is evil they still radiate evil but this is on a scale is rather scewed...

    The Cleric of a Good God whose alignment is evil would only radiate evil at the following levels:

    HD = 10 or lowers Faint
    HD = 11 - 25 Moderate
    HD = 26 - 50 Strong
    HD = 51+ Overwhelming

    Incidentally the priest would also radiate an aura of good, that would probably be far stronger than that of evil. At least by the spell description. This is amusing.

  4. #4
    Yeah, in the rules it would say that a cleric of the good alignment would radiate good by the following table

    Class Level 1 = Faint
    Class Level 2 - 4 = Moderate
    Class Level 5-10 = Strong
    Class Level 11+ = Overwhelming

    Heh, so mixing that with the NPCs evil alignment... whose only class is Cleric

    HD/Class Level 1 = Faint Good + Faint Evil = Neutral or Gray I guess
    HD/Class Level 2 - 4 = Moderate Good + Faint Evil = Faint Good
    HD/Class Level 5 - 10 = Strong Good + Faint Evil = Moderate Good
    HD/Class Level 11 - 25 = Overwhelming Good + Moderate Evil = Moderate Good
    HD/Class Level 26 - 50 = Overwhelming Good + Strong Evil = Faint Good
    HD/Class Level 51+ = Overwhelming Good + Overwhelming Evil = Neutral or Gray I guess


    I still think that giving him a ring of mind shielding is the easiest solution though, heheh.
    "Who was the first that forged the deadly blade? Of rugged steel his savage soul was made." --Tibullus

    "Qui desiderat pacem praeparet bellum." --Vegetius

    "Men grow tired of sleep, love, singing and dancing sooner than war." --Homer

  5. #5
    Senior Member RaspK_FOG's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Moschato, Athens, Greece
    Posts
    1,130
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    The problem here arises due to the fact that the core rules are not followed to the letter in the revised (3.×e instead of 2.×e) BRCS as a means of capturing that feel of clerics being connected to their deity through their ethos that all official releases made from WotC simply failed to capture (partly due to the fact that in GH and FR most deities' lists of acceptable clerical alignments were not very well structured).

    In any case, I will PM the BRCS revision team about this if they don't notice. One idea I have is that clerics that have an alignment element that contradicts that of their patron they follow a different table, so that neutral clerics are a bit more distant than their counterparts and that evil clerics register as evil. Doing it otherwise would not work very well.

  6. #6
    Senior Member Beruin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    228
    Downloads
    4
    Uploads
    0
    >> RaspK_FOG wrote:

    The problem here arises due to the fact that the core rules are not followed to the letter in the revised (3.×e instead of 2.×e) BRCS.<<<



    That`s only partially true. Even when following the core rules to the letter (and who does, anyway), it seems that neutral clerics of good or evil deities would radiate a stronger aura of good or evil respectively than `ordinary` good or evil characters. When using BRCS the problem is only heightened as clerics could register as possessing an alignment opposite to their true alignment.



    >>One idea I have is that clerics that have an alignment element that contradicts that of their patron they follow a different table, so that neutral clerics are a bit more distant than their counterparts and that evil clerics register as evil. Doing it otherwise would not work very well.<<



    Hm, I`m not sure. I have to admit I`m rather tempted to allow evil clerics to register as good. After all, detect evil is only a 1st lvl spell, therefore by no means foolproof or absolutely reliable. As far as I remember the problems that can arise of the use of detect evil in a political game like birthright have been discussed here before. The spell can provide a sometimes too easy way for players to foil an elaborate plot (like: aha, this courtier is up to no good. Let`s go get him, we don`t need no additional evidence).

    As DM, I do not always want my players to know up front who the villain in the current adventure is. Well, the (female) player of the paladin in my group has the annoying tendency to scan nearly everybody she meets for evil routinely. And you can`t give everyone a ring of mindshielding.



    BTW, here`s the plot I want to spring on my characters: Stiele Ghieste, the regional head of the Militant Order of Cuiraecen in Ghoere has finally decided to make his bid for supremacy in the order (cf. Book of Priestcraft p. 44. I would like to portray him as neutral evil even though he`s listed as CN there). To this end, he accuses Fhylie the Sword, head of the order, of heresy and of being lax in her duties and therefore unfit to rule. The PCs, among them the already mentioned Paladin, heir to the throne of Tuornen and another Cleric of Cuiraecen, are caught in the middle.The PCs have to influence enough members of the order`s high tribunal to affect the outcome in their favor. Of course, Stiele has also already garnered some support.

    It does not really hinder the plot if the PCs detect Stiele as evil, but should he register as good, it might make them reconsider and maybe doubt if their planned course of action is really the right thing to do, i.e. the likelihood that they fall for his plot is greater.



    Well, so the question is: Can I rule that Stiele has a good aura even though he is not good or would I be unfairly taking advantage of a loophole in the rules?



    After all, DMs can be rules lawyers, too ;-)
    "The empire, long divided, must unite; long united, must divide. Thus it has ever been."
    - The Three Kingdoms, attributed to Luo Guanzhong, c.1330-c.1400

  7. #7
    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Ashland, NH
    Posts
    1,377
    Downloads
    6
    Uploads
    0
    After all, DMs can be rules lawyers, too ;-)
    DM&#39;s have to be rules lawyers to be good referees and deal with the players of that ilk. :huh:

    Well, so the question is: Can I rule that Stiele has a good aura even though he is not good or would I be unfairly taking advantage of a loophole in the rules?
    Either way, the clerics of the world should have an idea how the spell works: does it in fact detect the aura of a person&#39;s deity, does it detect the personal aura of an individual, or some combination of the two as suggested by T&#39;Char?

    Personally, I&#39;d determine the dominant aura radiated not by a cleric&#39;s deity, but by a combination of the cleric&#39;s alignment and whther they channel positive or negative energy. A neutral (neither evil nor good) would have a weaker aura than a good or evil one (who must channel positive or negative energy by default). Just seems like the obvious source of an aura as far as good vs. evil is concerned, and as to what sort of divine energy tends to be wielded by that cleric (which is what 3.5 auras seem to be based on).

    Obviously, a BR deity can&#39;t be all that dominant in terms of alignment if they are so flexible as to the alignments of their most direct representatives in the world, their clerics. This being the case, it stands to reason that the divine energy channeled by a BR cleric wouldn&#39;t be so heavily flavored in terms of alignment as would a Greyhawk or FR cleric, and that personal choice would be a much stronger factor in determining a cleric&#39;s aura.

    Osprey

  8. #8
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Virginia Beach, Virginia
    Posts
    3,946
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    Also, why is a paladin just going to attempt a detect evil?

    This is not something that they do randomly and never to just check on the possibility that an NPC is evil. Attempting to wrestle power within the church is not an evil act - it is just politics. Paladins of Cuiraecen generally don&#39;t give a darn about politics - they are creatures of action. Decisive and brash. They act impulsively (hence their chaotic vice lawful alignment) and generally don&#39;t go in for diplomacy and talking. Unlike paladins of Haelyn they are not as concerned with maintaining the laws and with preserving and protecting the weak and downtrodden.

    This is assuming that in your scenario it would be the paladin making this attempt vice the cleric. Now a cleric of Cuiraecen is more likely to use detect evil as an ends to a means, but again it depends on his/her alignment and which aspect of Cuiraecen he/she favors. But in general, clerics of Cuiraecen are also less likely to use politics effectively (see that chaotic thing) and generally are more brash and decisive in their actions. Cuiraecen favors strength in all things, that is no fear. Pretty much their god doesn&#39;t favor using politics as a means to an end, so there should be no real inclination to this. Which is most likely why the CSH never fully backed the restoration of the true regent of Osoerde - they are just not real good at politics.

    Whatever you do - apply it consistently. If they have previoulsy attempted a detect evil then whatever mechanic you used then you need to use now, or at least explain the change to the mechanic before implementing it. That is what a DM owes his players.
    Duane Eggert

  9. #9
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Edinburgh, UK
    Posts
    190
    Downloads
    2
    Uploads
    0
    I have personally found the detect good/evil ability to be more of a problem than a boon in more socially oriented campaigns. To prevent the alignment system from becoming a too overwhelming issue, I ruled that the spell would only register if the character in question had performed an evil act in the recent past. Only slightly evil acts (e.g. stealing something minor or lying for personal gain) gave a very faint aura, while really bads things (e.g. rape and massacre) gave a strong reading. How far back the cleric could detect was a function of level.

    As a higher level spell I included one that could discern if a character had evil intentions or plans. A very popular spell with the more paranoid players, but they never know whom the target was ploting against. :unsure:

    Cheers,
    E

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
BIRTHRIGHT, DUNGEONS & DRAGONS, D&D, the BIRTHRIGHT logo, and the D&D logo are trademarks owned by Wizards of the Coast, Inc., a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc., and are used by permission. ©2002-2010 Wizards of the Coast, Inc.