dual classing...

[rad smith]

here's my problem; i'm a thief regent, but when i hit a suitable level (9
or 10) i intend to dual-class to a wizard.
now, i've got the requisite stats, and an IC reason for doing so, the
problem i have is this: the moment i do it, i'll stop getting regency from
my guild holdings.
this is not good; as i'm unlikely to be able to get by on 7 regency a
turn, and it'll be a while until i get to an equal wizard level. can
anyone see a way around this?
it's not an imminent problem, as i'm 5th level atm, but still it's
annoying.


- --
rad

"these people are going to have to realise that sometimes
bad things happen for no reason, and without it begin anybody's
fault. it's a tough life; stop complaining and deal with it."

[Craig Greeson]

rad smith wrote:
>
> here's my problem; i'm a thief regent, but when i hit a suitable level (9
> or 10) i intend to dual-class to a wizard.
> now, i've got the requisite stats, and an IC reason for doing so, the
> problem i have is this: the moment i do it, i'll stop getting regency from
> my guild holdings.

Greetings,
I don't really think this should be a problem if you're using the official BR
rules. The Rulebook section on collecting regency points (p. 40-41) says that
both multi- and dual-classed characters gain regency at the most favorable rate
for their different classes. It even gives the example of a thief/wizard
gaining full regency from both guilds and sources.

This sounds like a rule that could be abused by greedy players if the DM doesn't
watch it. I can imagine dual-classed regents who started their adventuring
careers as thieves but quickly changed to warriors. They could rule a nation
and also have a number of regency (and gold) producing trade routes.

Regards
Craig

[James Ruhland]

I agree with Jonathan; thouse are the breaks. However, if you plan to wait
till you reach 9th-10th level before switching over to Wizad, then you have
time to plan: just as you can collect scrolls, spellbooks (if you're lucky)
now, before you can use them, start:

1) putting asside some Regency Points for later.
2) Save some cash now; Wizads (thouse with only Source holdings) are always
broke.
3) Try to come to an "arrangement" with a local Wizad (I.E., especially
whoever you decide to be your "mentor" if possible): perhaps he can "loan"
you a few Sources during that interegnum so you'll collect some additional
RPs.
4) No law against you Creating Source Holdings & Ruling them now,
especially if you have a Wizad Lt. That way, by the time you switch, you
might have a nice little collection of Sources for yourself.

You may not bring in as much RPs as you do now, but if you save some now,
and make arrangements to bring in at least a reasonable amount during your
"interegnum" (the time when you're "only" a Wizard and not a Thief/Wizard),
you should manage ok. A few Vassals or friendly Regents who'd donate RPs
(in exchange for spells, or some of the cash you'll be bringing in from
your Guilds even if you no longer get RPs, etc) wouldn't hurt, either.
I'm sure if you're creative you'll think of a way around this problem.
Take it from someone who knows; it can be. . .interesting. *G*
Dual-classing isn't supposed to be easy, and it isn't for the faint of
heart, but oh, is it ever worth it in the long run (if you live that long!
remember the J.K. Galbraith line: "in the long run, we're all dead" but
still. . .)
>
> Those are the breaks; get over it. If it really bothers you, why don't
you
> dual class now? The first five levels of thief go by quick!
>
> Jonathan
>
> >
> > here's my problem; i'm a thief regent, but when i hit a suitable level
(9
> > or 10) i intend to dual-class to a wizard.
> > now, i've got the requisite stats, and an IC reason for doing so, the
> > problem i have is this: the moment i do it, i'll stop getting regency
from
> > my guild holdings.
> > this is not good; as i'm unlikely to be able to get by on 7 regency a
> > turn, and it'll be a while until i get to an equal wizard level. can
> > anyone see a way around this?
> > it's not an imminent problem, as i'm 5th level atm, but still it's
> > annoying.
> >

[lialos@crosslink.ne]

rad smith wrote:
>
> here's my problem; i'm a thief regent, but when i hit a suitable level (9
> or 10) i intend to dual-class to a wizard.
> now, i've got the requisite stats, and an IC reason for doing so, the
> problem i have is this: the moment i do it, i'll stop getting regency from
> my guild holdings.
> this is not good; as i'm unlikely to be able to get by on 7 regency a
> turn, and it'll be a while until i get to an equal wizard level. can
> anyone see a way around this?
> it's not an imminent problem, as i'm 5th level atm, but still it's
> annoying.
>
> --
> rad

Well, two things, since you're gonna become a wizard, you can try
accumulating sources and province holdings now while you are a thief, as
well as just gather up loads of RP from your guilds to last you a while
once you switch over.

That's my 2GB worth dude.

Good luck.

Tripp

[rad smith]

> rules. The Rulebook section on collecting regency points (p. 40-41) says that
> both multi- and dual-classed characters gain regency at the most favorable rate
> for their different classes. It even gives the example of a thief/wizard
> gaining full regency from both guilds and sources.
>
> This sounds like a rule that could be abused by greedy players if the DM doesn't
> watch it.

that's unlikely to be a problem. my realm already produces far more
regency (about 70) than my bloodstrength.


- --
rad

"these people are going to have to realise that sometimes
bad things happen for no reason, and without it begin anybody's
fault. it's a tough life; stop complaining and deal with it."

[James Ray]

this is LONG, i warn you. Dual-classed characters have an immeasrurable
potential for harm in Cerilia. Here is my dissertation, for what its
worth.
- ----------
> From: rad smith
> To: birthright
> Subject: [BIRTHRIGHT] - dual classing...
> Date: Thursday, March 05, 1998 8:09 AM
>
>
>
> here's my problem; i'm a thief regent, but when i hit a suitable level (9
> or 10) i intend to dual-class to a wizard.
> now, i've got the requisite stats, and an IC reason for doing so, the
> problem i have is this: the moment i do it, i'll stop getting regency
from
> my guild holdings.
> this is not good; as i'm unlikely to be able to get by on 7 regency a
> turn, and it'll be a while until i get to an equal wizard level. can
> anyone see a way around this?
> it's not an imminent problem, as i'm 5th level atm, but still it's
> annoying.
>
>
> --
> rad
>
> "these people are going to have to realise that sometimes
> bad things happen for no reason, and without it begin anybody's
> fault. it's a tough life; stop complaining and deal with it."
hmmm - we have seen this query bouced around a bit, latley. Craig Greeson
added, most eloquently (I might add), the rule from Page #41-
"Multi-classed and dual-classed characters collect Regency at the most
favorable rate; ". This DOES beg the question, IS a character
"Dual-Classed" from the moment he or she expresses a desire to BECOME
dual-classed, or does the "Dual-Classed" status not begin until the
character's level in his (or HER) NEW class has exceeded that of his
previous class? AND, more importantly, how l;ong does it take for the
Thief character in the example to "become" a mage?? What happens to the
Regent in question while he ponders the intricacies of "True Magic"?? Must
he spend just a few hours in seclusion, or must he spend MONTHS of game
time out of the campaign, learning his new art? The same also holds true
for Priests - do THEY automatically "learn" their devotions, or is their a
certain amount of time that must be spent in "clerical" study before they
may cast spells?
I, for one, believe that there must be a trade-off for such an
advantageous swapping of professions. The various studies of characterr
classes MUST take SOME amount of time to learn, EVEN if only at the first
level of experience (profiency). The character with the prerequisite
ability scores ALREADY has an almost insurmountable advantage in the
campaign world. Once he has made the progression to becoming
"Dual-Classed", he has crossed the last legitimate bound of his temporal
power - he may NOW collect Regency from holdings heretofore denied him.
The "Thief" in the example below is dangerously close to upsetting the
balance of the game. He colects Regency Points equal to 1/2 the levels of
his Law Holdings, FULL value for the value of his Guild Holdings, and
stands at the precepice of collecting RP's for NOT developing his lands any
further (by maintaining high-level Source Holdings), providing he does not
try to increase the ratings of any of his provinces in the future. Only
the "Dual-Classed" Ranger-Mage (whose prerequisites [thankfully] almost
entirely preclude his very existence) stands to gain more from the abscence
of a time limit towards the changing of profession.
One cannot simply allow a character to change from Thievery to Magic-Use
over night. It MUST take time to learn the basic rudiments of
spell-casting. During that time, the prospective "Dual-Classed" character
must experience SOME disadvantage. Perhaps he can only peform in ONE Action
Round per Domain Turn - his attentions would, by necessity, be required in
the study of his NEW profession, after all.
I'm still unsure of exactly how *I* will react to the subject of
"Dual-Classed" in MY campaign. i DO imagine the speediest transition being
between the "Thief" and "Warrior" classes, but only because the "Priest"
and "Mage" classes require instruction into the esoterical and the abstract
- - subjects Warriors and Thieves cannot wrap their hands around. It may
even be fair to allow the transition to occur at the same rate for ALL
classes, but i still have reservations about the "Priest-Mage". Perhaps
Priests and Paladins cant decide at a later date (after embarking upon
their religious study) to start upon ANOTHER path (it WOULD call into
question their devotion to their previously stated religious devotion).
I dont know - I only seek to bring to the attention of the powers that
be that THIS (Dual-Classed characters in the Birthright Setting) has the
potential to set a POOR precedent for the Birthright Setting. To allow
PC's access to TOO many sources of Regency Points is folly - applying
simple mathematics to the rules set forth in ther BIrthright Rulebook
should demonstrate that.
The most viable solution is to set a period of time (the Domain Turn
DOES spring to mind), during which the Regent has ony limited ability to
affect events outside is court. If the trsnsition is one between stealth
and combat, only one Action must be foregone over the course of the Domain
Turn during which the Regent learns his NEW skills. If it involves moving
from the study of magic to the study of religion, two Actions must be left
untaken. To move from a non-spell-casting class to one that IS able to
produce magical effects, the Regent must give up 3 Action Rounds. Until
these Actions have been given up, the Regent does NOT become
"Dual-Classed", and does NOT gain regency for Holdings previously denied
him.
The passage of such time doesnt account for much in REGULAR campaign
worlds, but Birthright is hardly "regular". Should the Count of Danigu
desire to take it upon himself to learn the profession of arms, it MUST
distract him from affairs of State. He stands to reap too much from the
effort, otherwise. Likewise, should a prospective Count of Ilien wish to
begin his career as a Fighter, there MUST be a price for him to pay when he
makes up his mind to beome a Mage - lost Actions or SOMEthing.

>
>
>
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[James Ruhland]

> hmmm - we have seen this query bouced around a bit, latley. Craig
Greeson
> added, most eloquently (I might add), the rule from Page #41-
> "Multi-classed and dual-classed characters collect Regency at the most
> favorable rate; ". This DOES beg the question, IS a character
> "Dual-Classed" from the moment he or she expresses a desire to BECOME
> dual-classed, or does the "Dual-Classed" status not begin until the
> character's level in his (or HER) NEW class has exceeded that of his
> previous class?
>
You might have missed my own response to this (hardly the last word), but I
personally would rule, and have lived under the restriction, that you don't
get "the most favorable rate" until AFTER you've exceeded your old class.
I.E. to reiterate: if I start life as a thief, reach 10th level, then
switch to Wizard, I collect Wizard RPs ONLY, until I reach 11th level as a
Wizard, at which point I'm eligible for both. But, recall, you can still
only recieve RPs not greater than your BL. . .that's where Vassals come in
handy, tho. *G*.

> AND, more importantly, how l;ong does it take for the
> Thief character in the example to "become" a mage?? What happens to the
> Regent in question while he ponders the intricacies of "True Magic"??
Must
> he spend just a few hours in seclusion, or must he spend MONTHS of game
> time out of the campaign, learning his new art? The same also holds true
> for Priests - do THEY automatically "learn" their devotions, or is their
a
> certain amount of time that must be spent in "clerical" study before they
> may cast spells?
>
This is a much difficult question, and one that doesn't just have to do
with Cerilia.
Hmmmn. . .well, I can look at it this way, too: whenever I plan to
Dual-Class a character, I spend a lot of time & effort prepairing for the
switch. Take the example above: I try, in so far as is possible, to hang
onto scrolls, get copies of whatever Spellbooks I find, ingratiate myself
with the party mage, etc. In BR I might spend some time trying to
accumulate a Source or two, get in good with the local Wizard regent (try
doing both: getting a local Source holding AND being on good terms with the
local Wizard. . .it can be done, but it takes time and effort.) Could be
said that I'm also spending some of my free time over these MANY YEARS of
game time studying with local magicians, Wizards, etc; in effect my
"apprenticeship", so that when I switch from Theif to Wizard, that
represents that I have learned what I needed to know to become a 1st level
Wizard. I can now adventure as such.
Ok, but take a different example: I'm a thief, I go through life as a
thief, I have a 16 Int, but then someone hits me with one of thouse special
wammies, and all the sudden I have a 17 Int.: Joy! I've always wanted to be
a Wizard anyhow! I'll switch immediately! I.E. no preparation, you can't
really assume I've been spending game years in study (along with my other
activities), do I wake up the next morning as a newly-minted 1st level
Wizard? That does seem implausable. However, I'm loath to make someone in
effect "drop out" of a campaign for game months, for any reason. You might
as well just say "I don't allow Dual-Classing in my campaign because it
causes too many headaches."

> The "Thief" in the example below is dangerously close to upsetting the
> balance of the game. He colects Regency Points equal to 1/2 the levels
of
> his Law Holdings, FULL value for the value of his Guild Holdings, and
> stands at the precepice of collecting RP's for NOT developing his lands
any
> further (by maintaining high-level Source Holdings), providing he does
not
> try to increase the ratings of any of his provinces in the future. Only
> the "Dual-Classed" Ranger-Mage (whose prerequisites [thankfully] almost
> entirely preclude his very existence) stands to gain more from the
abscence
> of a time limit towards the changing of profession.
>
This Character is a danger! He must be taking in hundreds of RPs! Oh, wait.
. .His Bloodline is 32. He takes in 32 RPs irregardless of where they come
from, and irregardless of the strength of his realm; a respectable, but not
overwhelming number.
IMO, any Thief/Guilder worth the name will fairly soon "max out" his/her
RPs, because of the TR Regency alone. One can (one here does, in Darkstars
PBeM game, at this moment), as a thief, have a vast collection of mainly 0
level holdings, which owe their value, both GB and RP wise to the TRs that
are attached to them. . .but I'm back to my comments on TRs again.
But you know what? I *still* want to find ways to increase the ratings of
my Holdings. Why? It's just not aesthetically pleasing to have a vast
collection of 0 level holdings, despite the vast ammount of income & RPs
one can get from them. So, assuming my characters survive, I still plan on
developing my realm; Even though I can't bring in any more RPs than I
already do (oh, but there is Vassalage. . .)