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  1. #11

    Elves and Realm Spells

    In a message dated 98-03-06 13:06:26 EST, you write:

    >

    The land itself is indeed different in the wake of that battle:

    "The cataclysm that obliterated Deismaar so distressed the land that many ley
    lines collapsed. Our wizards tried to reforge the lines, but the land had
    changed too much...." --Excerpt from an elven tale, Book of Magecraft, p. 25

    I also liked your comments about the concept of holdings--individual ownership
    of the land and its resources--being beyond the elves' paradigm. That was
    certainly a very foreign concept to them. Imagine waking up the day after that
    battle and discovering that *everything* you have known to be true--from your
    connection with the land to the laws of nature to methods of governance--had
    changed irrevocably. Is it any wonder the humans were able to gain such a
    strong foothold while the reeling elves struggled to adjust their entire way
    of life?

    CB

  2. #12
    Jonathan Picklesimer
    Guest

    Elves and Realm Spells

    On Thu, 5 Mar 1998, Bryan Palmer wrote:

    >
    > In my game, I have interpreted this to mean that all elven mages can
    > cast true or realm magic. How else would they have been able to hold
    > off the onslaught of human encroachment for so long. However, to

    OK, I feel that you have missed an important distinction. True magic is
    different from realm magic. Yes, elves have always been able to tap the
    meighval needed to cast true magic spells. This does not equate with
    being able to control enough meighval to cast realm spells. The BoM talks
    about the existence of primodial ley lines and the ability of elves to
    access the ley lines to cast true magic, but this still does not imply
    their ability to cast realm magic before the bloodlines. True magic by
    itself, compared to the human magician's limitation to illusion/divination
    at upper levels, is more than enough to throw the weight of magic in favor
    of the elves.

    Just my two GBs
    jsp

  3. #13
    Jim Cooper
    Guest

    Elves and Realm Spells

    darkstar wrote:
    > 2. I do not think that the common garden variety elf can cast realm
    > spells though as it does state in the rule book that only a Regent
    > Wizard has the power to cast such powerful magic, because other wizards
    > lack the supernatural conection with the land. This means that anyone
    > who has a source holding (or the correct level) can cast realm magic.
    ><

    True enough, except that as elves don't need to be blooded, this means
    that an unblooded elf should be able to hold source holdings as if they
    were of the blood, does it not? Does anyone have a different
    interpretation?

    ><
    > You really need to reign in your belligerent attitude. I have noticed
    > that no-one else seems to be answering your posts and perhaps if you
    > toned down some of your responses and were a little nicer people might.
    > There is no need to say someone is wrong just because they disagree with
    > you. State your position in a nice calm manner instead and perhaps then
    > you will be listened too.
    ><

    Wow, I didn't realize I was being belligerent. To all the list I would
    like to say I am very sorry for any past behaviour that I have displayed
    in my posts; I will reign in my future 'attitude'. In my defense, it
    was late, I was trying to shorten my post, and I was the one actually
    responding to a post, so I was disagreeing with that particular
    listmember, not the other way around. I was only giving my point of
    view, and being rather succinct (I will admit) in doing so.

    Again, I apologize, to Brandon Quina, Ian, and all the others.

    Darren

  4. #14
    Jim Cooper
    Guest

    Elves and Realm Spells

    Mark A Vandermeulen wrote:
    ><
    > This is an interesting idea, although a bit off-canon as _I_ understand
    > it. It might be that the elven word for "wizard" (which humans adopted)
    > originally meant "Walker Alone," or something like that, and refered to
    > the fact that some elves were able to spend a large amount of time
    > communing with the land rather than with elves society, and in return for
    > this simpatico they gained the understanding of the natural ley lines, and
    > the capability to channel such large amounts of meghveil needed to cast
    > the most powerful of spells. I might be tempted to call this not "gaining
    > a bloodline" but rather "becoming Dragon-like." Perhaps that's what the
    > original meaning of wizard was: "Dragon-kin" or "One-who-became-
    > Dragonlike."
    ><
    >
    Thank you Mark, for your insightful comments. I liked your suggestions
    and thought they reinforce my arguements well, especially your
    'Dragonification' part. This is similar to how I see elves and their
    relationship with nature - I wish I had thought of that. Thus, Dragons
    are perhaps personifications of mebhaighl itself, while elves are a
    personification of nature which is a physical manifestation of
    mebhaighl. How does that sound. Thus, elves and dragons are perhaps
    'cousins', from a magical standpoint, in Aebrynnis.

    The only other parts of this post I would like to add to are that 1) all
    elves, as only stated in the BoM (I am not a rules lawyer here), are
    capable of casting true magic, thus, in effect, are considered to have
    bloodlines, right? Note, that this does not say that the majority of
    elves have the _knowledge_ to do so. Okay, now anyone who can cast true
    magic can cast realm magic if only they have access to source holdings,
    is this not technically correct? Now, since elves are able to cast true
    magic, what stopping them from finding a source, 'investing' themselves
    in it (as per elven investiture in BoP), gaining regency from it (yes, I
    know this is strictly 'against the rules', but it doesn't make sense
    that they are able to cast true magic like a blooded human and not be
    able to hold source holdings for regency like blooded humans only
    because of blood - which most elves wouldn't need IMO for the purposes
    of elven holdings) and cast realm spells. In effect, since they could
    cast true magic, why can't they cast realm magic if they have (access
    to) a source holding. Moreover, wizards can 'loan' their source
    holdings to other regents to use temporarily. Thus any elf, IMO, could
    use source holdings, IF they had the knowledge of how to use them.

    Secondly, if you have a fan handy, pick it up and place it in front of
    an electric fan. The wind is blown in directions you position the fan
    in. If you have a big enough fan, and the strength to hold it, you
    could conceivably change the direction of a whole lot of air. This is
    how I view the comments of a log in a river. Elves, IMO, have a much
    stronger will with respect to controlling mebhaighl, unlike any other
    race (except dragons), and thus if they only had the knowledge (the 'big
    fan' as it where, since they already have the 'strength'), any elf could
    conceivably wield mighty magic - no divine blood required.

    Hope this helps,
    Darren

  5. #15
    Bret W. Davenport
    Guest

    Elves and Realm Spells

    Jim Cooper wrote:

    > The only other parts of this post I would like to add to are that 1) all
    > elves, as only stated in the BoM (I am not a rules lawyer here), are
    > capable of casting true magic, thus, in effect, are considered to have
    > bloodlines, right?

    Quick comment from my perspective, and perhaps I am wrong again.

    It would seem to me that there is some confusion between "true magic" and "realm magic." They are
    separate entities, unrelated. True magic is just the powers beyond illusion and divination of over
    2nd (3rd?) level. Realm magic is that which is used through the energies of the departed gods and
    the ties to the lands (thus, requiring - in most cases - that the person be both a Regent and
    Blooded).

    IMHO, an elf could very well be a wielder of True Magic, but be completely powerless to control the
    mystical powers of the realm. Without that intangible source of power, that mystical energy, they
    are lacking the energies to do so.

    Consider this. A fighter, with a score of 18 intelligence, regardless of knowledge and mind, would
    not be capable of casting Realm Magic because he doesn't know how to tap into that energy, even if
    he does have regency. What makes him so different than the unblooded elven wizard? Simple put, I
    believe that the elven wizard would also lack that basic ability to tap into powers that have never
    been at their disposal, nor that they would have knowledge and control over.

    Finally, as many a good argument has been made since I joined recently, what's to say that a strong
    minded and charismatic Unblooded Elven Wizard of high level couldn't rule just as strongly and
    assured without Realm Magic. After all, as nice as the Realm Spells are, there are some pretty
    nasty Wizard Magic out there that would crumple any Regent of level 3 with only Realm Magic to back
    him.

    My 2 Gold Bars,
    Bret Davenport
    "SunSeeker"

  6. #16
    Jim Cooper
    Guest

    Elves and Realm Spells

    Bret W. Davenport wrote:

    > Quick comment from my perspective, and perhaps I am wrong again.
    >
    > It would seem to me that there is some confusion between "true magic" and "realm magic." They are
    > separate entities, unrelated. True magic is just the powers beyond illusion and divination of over
    > 2nd (3rd?) level. Realm magic is that which is used through the energies of the departed gods and
    > the ties to the lands (thus, requiring - in most cases - that the person be both a Regent and
    > Blooded).
    >
    > IMHO, an elf could very well be a wielder of True Magic, but be completely powerless to control the
    > mystical powers of the realm. Without that intangible source of power, that mystical energy, they
    > are lacking the energies to do so.
    ><

    Interesting. I had always thought that true magic's power or energy
    came from the surroundings, not from within, as it does for realm
    spells. In other words, true magic is just a lesser version of realm
    magic, and that true magic was an extension of mebhaighl. Lesser magic,
    on the other hand, came from within. The divine bloodlines 'simply'
    allowed people previously unable to feel the flow of mebhaighl to feel
    it and tap into it (for elves and dragons, on the other hand, this has
    always been a natural ability).

    The only counterpoint to this suggestion I can think of is that realm
    spells really only needs a source holding of sufficent level to power
    their energies and wizards are just there to guide it, but don't need to
    be a conduit - I assume that the actual power would not come from the
    wizard, but from the source. Thus, the only people able to tap into
    source holdings to cast realm spells would be beings able to cast true
    magic (which, in the case of my arguement, would include elves).

    Interesting.

    Darren

  7. #17
    Gary V. Foss
    Guest

    Elves and Realm Spells

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    Brandon Quina wrote:

    > > I am not sure if an Elven mage would need to be blooded to gain source
    > > holding and cast realm spell, but seeing that all the ones in Anuire
    > > and the other lands of Cerilia are I am willing to concede that point.

    Regarding who can cast realm spells:

    In the Ruins of Empire description of Tuarhievel's source holdings is the
    cryptic comment that though "[t]he prince dominates the magic of Tuarhievel...
    [he] graciously allows elf mages inhabiting his kingdom the opportunity to
    siphon what they need for their own spells."

    This seems to imply that other mages can cast realm spells if they have access
    to a Source holding and that they need not be the controlling regent of that
    Source in order to do so. The only requirements to casting realm spells seem
    to be:

    1. The ability to cast "true" magic.
    2. Access to a source holding powerful enough to cast the spell.
    3. Knowing the spell.

    This last requirement is something that should probably be noted. Mages who do
    not control a Source holding would have little reason to learn a realm spell.
    They can't cast it. Why learn it? Oh, they might do so in the hope of being
    able to cast it one day, but that seems a rather slim reason to spend so much
    time and energy, doesn't it?


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    Brandon Quina wrote:
    > I am not sure if an Elven mage would need to be
    blooded to gain source
    > holding and cast realm spell, but seeing that all the ones in Anuire
    > and the other lands of Cerilia are I am willing to concede that point.
    Regarding who can cast realm spells:

    In the Ruins of Empire description of Tuarhievel's source holdings
    is the cryptic comment that though "[t]he prince dominates the magic of
    Tuarhievel... [he] graciously allows elf mages inhabiting his kingdom the
    opportunity to siphon what they need for their own spells."

    This seems to imply that other mages can cast realm spells if they have
    access to a Source holding and that they need not be the controlling regent
    of that Source in order to do so.&nbsp; The only requirements to casting
    realm spells seem to be:

    1. The ability to cast "true" magic.
    2. Access to a source holding powerful enough to cast the spell.
    3. Knowing the spell.

    This last requirement is something that should probably be noted.&nbsp;
    Mages who do not control a Source holding would have little reason to learn
    a realm spell.&nbsp; They can't cast it.&nbsp; Why learn it?&nbsp; Oh,
    they might do so in the hope of being able to cast it one day, but that
    seems a rather slim reason to spend so much time and energy, doesn't it?
    &nbsp;

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  8. #18
    relve@Otdk.Helsinki.F
    Guest

    Elves and Realm Spells

    > > I am not sure if an Elven mage would need to be blooded to gain
    > > source holding and cast realm spell

    > Quoting from the Book of Magecraft:
    >
    > "Although all Sidhelien have within themselves the potential to wield true
    > magic, only a few experience a 'calling' to become wizards. Still fewer
    > possess the (b)loodlines that allow them to cast realm magic. So while magic
    > is familiar to the Sidhelien, it is not commonplace." (p. 5)
    >
    > Carrie Bebris

    So, an elven mage must be blooded in order to cast a realm spell.
    I accept it but still I would like to know WHY a bloodline is
    necessary?

    Let me draw a parallel: When you are told that the sun rises from the
    east you could accept it without a question but in order to run that
    world (where the sun rises from the east) it would be helpful to know
    the reason.

    I do not want to offend anyone but this way of explaining things in
    "official material" - i.e. things are like this and no explanation
    why - worries me a little bit. Instead of helping to create your own
    world, the published material starts to hinder it. I know that I can
    "fill in" any blank area or to "clarify" a rule that is
    confusing in my campaign, but doing so, would make later adoption of
    official material very difficult. (Because it comes out that my
    explanation does not comply with an "official rule".)

    Well, I am aware that many things must be left out in order to
    keep the price of a product reasonable. On the other hand, the pages
    in e-mails are not limited. So, I would appreciate very much if
    anyone from TSR would find some minutes to answer these questions:

    1. What is the connection the investiture creates? To what the regent
    is attached? In case of a realm the regent is connected to the land.
    But what about holdings? To the people (over whom the regent has
    power)? Do the holdings "move around" then with people?

    2.Why regents of guild and source holdings do not need
    the ceremony of investiture to transfer the respective holdings?
    What is so different there compared with Temple Holdings, provinces
    and especially Law Holdings? Or does it mean that ceremony of
    investiture is mostly show for commoners? That they would know by
    whom they are governed (in case of Law Holdings and provinces)? Why
    the spell then?

    3. What restricts an unblooded person to create a holding? Especially
    a 0 level law holding? (It is mentioned in Rulebook that only scions
    can be regents. On the other hand, law holdings are defined as "any
    entity that affect [a ruler's] ability to control a province and the
    loyalty of his government servants.." p.35) As we can see later in
    that book, not only province rulers can have law holdings in a
    province.) Or does it mean that only "holdings" that belong to a
    regent are called "holdings" and these controlled by a commoner are
    not? If the answer is "yes" why a commoner who is controlling a
    "wereholding"is not able (for example) to negotiate? (As Diplomacy is
    a domain action and also RP's must be spent)

    4. Why the province ruler collects taxes (when he does not have
    even a 0 level law holding) and not the person who has law holdings
    in that province? (Are people just willingly coming to
    his "hidingplace" to give up their money? And even then when
    another regent with maximum law holdings is trying to hinder it?)

    5. Regency is described as "an unseen aura of power that helps him [a
    regent] to do things that lesser mortal's could not even dream
    about" p.32. Does this aura only awe the people with whom the regent
    deals and thus helps him to achieve its goals or does regency
    actually enable to manipulate the outcome of an action?

    With the best regards to the creators of the most intriguing
    camapaign setting ever,

    Kaarel

  9. #19
    Bret W. Davenport
    Guest

    Elves and Realm Spells

    Jim Cooper wrote:

    > Interesting. I had always thought that true magic's power or energy
    > came from the surroundings, not from within, as it does for realm
    > spells. In other words, true magic is just a lesser version of realm
    > magic, and that true magic was an extension of mebhaighl. Lesser magic,
    > on the other hand, came from within. The divine bloodlines 'simply'
    > allowed people previously unable to feel the flow of mebhaighl to feel
    > it and tap into it (for elves and dragons, on the other hand, this has
    > always been a natural ability).

    Well, one of the disadvantages I endure is not having the BoM or BoP, thusin many instances I am
    unenlightened as to many references on this list.
    Where I am wrong, or ignorant, I apologize.

    Still, my opinion is that Realm and True magic are unrelated. True magic
    being powers that are tapped into from a different source of power. Actually
    I'd think they were garnered from many different sources of power. It is from
    this we see the specialist, and their inability to tap into opposition schools.
    Where the innate ability to find, control, and use these powers might be
    such that only those talented enough to use one could use the other, in and
    of itself, they would be different. If you examine the effect and usage of
    each type, you'd see them to be vastly different.

    Of course, being able to use True Magic or Realm Magic should be quite
    extremely rare indeed. There is, according to the core rules, only a very
    select few who can use true magic, and fewer still able to use realm.

    Elves, to me, would be collectively empowered to affect the world, but
    less so individually. The land, being more closely tied to the elven nature,
    would respond to elven needs as a collective whole. Individually, there
    would be little power to mold or alter the world around him or her (except,
    of course, for the rare Blooded Elf). Furthermore, the elves would not be
    able to force the land to submit to their will, the land would respond to
    their need (probably over the course of long years - they are, after all, an
    immortal and patient people).

    Bret Davenport
    "SunSeeker"

  10. #20
    Brandon Quina
    Guest

    Elves and Realm Spells

    > So, an elven mage must be blooded in order to cast a realm spell.
    > I accept it but still I would like to know WHY a bloodline is
    > necessary?

    As ive said before. The wizard is doing things that are on
    a paar with the powers of a god. Sure, anyone who could cast
    true magic *might* beable to have a source holding.

    However, they wouldnt be able to control the raw power from
    said source holding like a blooded wizard can. They cant take
    the power from the source, channel it through their body, and
    cast a spell that is.. basically.. miraculous..

    The same way an unblooded priest can cast spells granted to him
    by his god, but only a blooded priest can take his followers and
    use their faith to wield the divine miracles that were -- until
    deismaar -- the exclusive domain of GODS.

    You cant just be any ole elf or human to do these things. The
    same holds with unblooded regents. They can do all domain actions
    (I would let them do things that required regency.. They would
    just get penaltys to the dice roll. If an action costs 2 regency,
    they would get -2 to their dice roll) but they cant use the power
    of the land to make their work easier.

    An unblooded regent has to literally work his butt off to rule
    up his holdings. A blooded regent, atleast a powerful one, can
    just use his divine power and have the increase happen almost
    automatically (ie. spending RP points)

    Both would still have to spend time and energy doing things, but
    the blooded person can be reasonably sure that his efforts will
    succeed if he wants too.

    > I do not want to offend anyone but this way of explaining things in
    > "official material" - i.e. things are like this and no explanation
    > why - worries me a little bit. Instead of helping to create your own
    > world, the published material starts to hinder it. I know that I can
    > "fill in" any blank area or to "clarify" a rule that is confusing in
    > my campaign, but doing so, would make later adoption of official
    > material very difficult. (Because it comes out that my explanation
    > does not comply with an "official rule".)

    I explained /why/ earlier, and was greeted with people who told me
    I was wrong and didnt say why. So I took the same tact, pointing out
    things that proved why my 'why' was correct-- atleast, officially.

    Basically. Unblooded elves cant cast realm spells because they cant
    control the energy from the land to that great a degree. Its more
    than just being able to control a source and cast true magic. You
    have to have the bloodline. Of course, for humans-- true magic
    /is/ a bloodline. But elves dont have to have a bloodline to wield
    true magic-- but they DO have to have a bloodline to wield realm
    magic. Because if they dont, they cant siphon the power from the
    source (regency) and use it to cast the spells.

    Remember. Its the /WIZARD/ the makes the realm spell work, not the
    source. The source is just supplying the energy. :)

    > 1. What is the connection the investiture creates? To what the regent
    > is attached? In case of a realm the regent is connected to the land.
    > But what about holdings? To the people (over whom the regent has
    > power)? Do the holdings "move around" then with people?

    Im not 'official' TSR. However, it was generally held that kings
    had the 'divine right' to rule. They were chosen by their gods and
    given the power to rule over the land.

    Investiture is a realm spell. It used to be a /gods-only/ type
    effect. Its basically a tangible game-effect of 'divine right'.

    > 2.Why regents of guild and source holdings do not need
    > the ceremony of investiture to transfer the respective holdings?
    > What is so different there compared with Temple Holdings, provinces
    > and especially Law Holdings? Or does it mean that ceremony of
    > investiture is mostly show for commoners? That they would know by
    > whom they are governed (in case of Law Holdings and provinces)? Why
    > the spell then?

    The rulers of kingdoms had the divine right. The 'pope' in real
    life was said to be gods hand on earth. Thus, temple and provinces
    would have /real/ reasons to need investiture.

    Guilds and Sources-- merchants would rise and fall to such a
    degree, that it would be hard to say that one merchant was 'choosen
    by god to be the worlds merchant'.

    > 3. What restricts an unblooded person to create a holding? Especially
    > a 0 level law holding? (It is mentioned in Rulebook that only scions
    > can be regents. On the other hand, law holdings are defined as "any
    > entity that affect [a ruler's] ability to control a province and the
    > loyalty of his government servants.." p.35) As we can see later in
    > that book, not only province rulers can have law holdings in a
    > province.) Or does it mean that only "holdings" that belong to a
    > regent are called "holdings" and these controlled by a commoner are
    > not? If the answer is "yes" why a commoner who is controlling a
    > "wereholding"is not able (for example) to negotiate? (As Diplomacy is
    > a domain action and also RP's must be spent)

    In my game, there is nothing that prohibits the unblooded from
    being rulers. Except popular opinion. In a world where your rulers
    basically wield the power of the GODS-- basically /proving/ divine
    right to rule.

    Thus, commoners wouldnt likly want to serve under unblooded rulers.
    There would be no /game mechanic/ to stop them though. I even have
    afew unblooded guilders in my game.

    > 4. Why the province ruler collects taxes (when he does not have
    > even a 0 level law holding) and not the person who has law holdings
    > in that province? (Are people just willingly coming to
    > his "hidingplace" to give up their money? And even then when
    > another regent with maximum law holdings is trying to hinder it?)

    If you own the province, its your province. You have it invested
    to you, and probally have tax collectors and other civil servants
    there to take care of this kind of thing.

    However, if someone else owns all the law holdings -- and they
    arnt your allys (I allow allys/masters law holdings to count as
    'your own') then these people can STEAL your tax money. Or possibly,
    the law claims might represent them collecting the money instead.

    Basically, however, a 'province holding' is rulership of the land.
    Law holdings are things to keep order and peace alive :)

    > 5. Regency is described as "an unseen aura of power that helps him [a
    > regent] to do things that lesser mortal's could not even dream
    > about" p.32. Does this aura only awe the people with whom the regent
    > deals and thus helps him to achieve its goals or does regency
    > actually enable to manipulate the outcome of an action?

    RP :) You can spend RP and make it where you have only a 5% chance
    of failing your actions. Thats 'divine' cause its increasing
    your chance of success with no real action on your part :)



    - --
    (lore@tmgbbs.com) \|/// Zzzzzzzzzzzz
    Brandon Lance Quina (- -)
    ICQ Number: 6809944 ---ooO(_)Ooo---

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