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Thread: Elves and Realm Spells
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03-07-1998, 04:10 PM #21Brandon QuinaGuest
Elves and Realm Spells
> Interesting. I had always thought that true magic's power or energy
> came from the surroundings, not from within, as it does for realm
> spells. In other words, true magic is just a lesser version of realm
> magic, and that true magic was an extension of mebhaighl. Lesser
> magic, on the other hand, came from within. The divine bloodlines
> 'simply' allowed people previously unable to feel the flow of
> mebhaighl to feel it and tap into it (for elves and dragons, on the
> other hand, this has always been a natural ability).
Hmmm. My viewpoint has always been that the energy from magic
comes from the surroundings and is channeled through the wizard.
Those that can only command lesser magic arnt that good at
channeling the energy. True magic people have learned to channel
the energy from their surroundings.
Realm magic, however, is exclusive to the blooded. They have learned
to channel MASSIVE amounts of energy through them-- provided they
have access to a source.
All three types of magic are diffrent, and being able to cast one
dosnt mean you can cast the others.
> The only counterpoint to this suggestion I can think of is that realm
> spells really only needs a source holding of sufficent level to power
> their energies and wizards are just there to guide it, but don't need
> to be a conduit - I assume that the actual power would not come from
> the wizard, but from the source. Thus, the only people able to tap
> into source holdings to cast realm spells would be beings able to cast
> true magic (which, in the case of my arguement, would include elves).
However. The Unblooded (even elves) /cant/ get this power from the
source. They can control the source, possibly even empower it-- but
they cant use it to cast spells. The energy just stsys there.
The wizard is taking the energy from the source, and using it
to cast the spell. It is /him/ that is important, the source
is just providing the energy. If it was otherwise, then the
casters level wouldnt make any diffrence.
And only people with a touch of the divine (ie. a bloodline)
can do this. Even if the bloodline comes from 'the land' (which
I still think is total hogwash) its still a DIVINE bloodline.
The gods died, and the world was saturated in their energys.
Ive even had my adventurers go to places that were SATURATED
in one of the gods energys. There was a tree there that grew
gold coins . They tried to cut it down and take it
home, but it died.
Now, if somebody wants to say that elves are special and
can do anything they want. Cast realm spells, control
source holdings, collect regency, be 'regents'. Then thats
fine, however I would like to know the answers to two
questions..
1) Why do elves have all these powers??
2) How come they've managed to get nailed by the humans so badly??
- --
(lore@tmgbbs.com) \|/// Zzzzzzzzzzzz
Brandon Lance Quina (- -)
ICQ Number: 6809944 ---ooO(_)Ooo---
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03-07-1998, 07:14 PM #22James RuhlandGuest
Elves and Realm Spells
Regarding who can cast realm spells:
> In the Ruins of Empire description of Tuarhievel's source holdings is the
> cryptic comment that though "[t]he prince dominates the magic of
Tuarhievel...
> [he] graciously allows elf mages inhabiting his kingdom the opportunity
to
> siphon what they need for their own spells."
> This seems to imply that other mages can cast realm spells if they have
access
> to a Source holding and that they need not be the controlling regent of
that
> Source in order to do so. The only requirements to casting realm spells
seem
> to be:
IMO, the Tuarhievel SB was insufficiently precise. . .I thought it would
imply only Blooded Elven mages. But it didn't say that. Anyhow, the BOM is
pretty precice on who's able to cast Realm Spells: only Blooded Wizards.
Look at it this way, also: go right ahead and cast the Realm Spell. .
.what, you don't have the RPs? Here, I'll grant you some. . .now we get
back to my q. (regarding our unblooded despot) as to if you can really
Grant (or via vassalage or whatever) RPs to unblooded people.
> This last requirement is something that should probably be noted. Mages
who do
> not control a Source holding would have little reason to learn a realm
spell.
> They can't cast it. Why learn it? Oh, they might do so in the hope of
being
> able to cast it one day, but that seems a rather slim reason to spend so
much
> time and energy, doesn't it?
Well, we are talking Immortal Elves here (oh, god. . .just had a vision of
Harlequin/Laughing Man & Ehran the Scribe/Wordsmyth. . .deja-vu all over
again). They can afford to spend time on projects that shorter-lived people
would consider not worth the effort. So, if you're of the belief that Elves
live under no restrictions (see my earlier rant about that), then I see no
reason why they wouldn't spend the time (a insignificant fragment of their
long life) to learn Realm Spells.
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03-07-1998, 07:45 PM #23James RuhlandGuest
Elves and Realm Spells
>
> I do not want to offend anyone but this way of explaining things in
> "official material" - i.e. things are like this and no explanation
> why - worries me a little bit.
>
Well, it doesn't offend me; one of the funnest things to discuss on this
board are the "why's" for various rules, and also if there should be rules
variants.
I've always held that just like there are two kinds of people in this
world*, there are two kinds of BR gamers: thouse who belive Elves operate
under some restrictions, and thouse who believe they are akin to Living
Gods *G*. If you want Elves to cast Realm Spells irregardless of being
Blooded in your campaign, I see no reason why they shouldn't be able to. If
you think, further, that they should be able to cast them "on the fly",
without having to tap a source (just because the Rules say you need a Level
5 Source doesn't tell you why, does it?), the that's what you should do.
And you can come up with any number of reasons why this is so (I.E. "Elves
have a special connection to nature that allows them to tap Sources that
others just can't, and they get free RPs from nature so they can cast these
spells without being Regents.") Or, if you choose to follow the rules as
written, you can come up with any number of reasons why (I.E. the
Birthright reasons; Bloodlines allow you to tie yourself to the land and
it's Sources, Bloodlines allow you to accumulate RPs that are nessisary to
cast any Realm spell, etc.), or whatever other explaination that fits best
into your own campaign. No reason for every campaign to be the same, and
operate under the same rules, as every other campaign.
And I, personally, would enjoy seeing your "home grown" reasons for why
Elves (or whoever) do or don't live under the same restrictions that apply
to every other Cerilian.
I'd give my best answers to your other questions, but I'm sleepy. . .plus,
I'm not the Guardian of Orthodoxy; IMO, people should decide these "why
this rather than that" questions for their own campaigns, for the very
reason you gave: so that everything is individualized, every campaign
unique, and, to use a much debased word, for "diversity" (let a thousand
flowers bloom, to quote a bloodthirsty tyrant).
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03-07-1998, 08:55 PM #24Jim CooperGuest
Elves and Realm Spells
Brandon Quina wrote:
> <
> Remember. Its the /WIZARD/ the makes the realm spell work, not the
> source. The source is just supplying the energy. :)
> <
But doesn't being a wizard mean that you have to have the ability to
cast true magic, and that being the case, since any elf can cast true
magic they can also make realm spells work?
Perhaps I am quibbling over loopholes or griping about a little thing.
Does anyone else see the situation that I am talking about? Whatever
the case, please don't take this to mean that everyone has to see my
way, and that DMs can't run their campaigns the way they want them too.
Darren
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03-07-1998, 10:31 PM #25Rasmus Juul WagnerGuest
Elves and Realm Spells
On Fri, 6 Mar 1998, Jim Cooper wrote:
> Mark A Vandermeulen wrote:
> ><
> > This is an interesting idea, although a bit off-canon as _I_ understand
> > it. It might be that the elven word for "wizard" (which humans adopted)
> > originally meant "Walker Alone," or something like that, and refered to
> > the fact that some elves were able to spend a large amount of time
> > communing with the land rather than with elves society, and in return for
> > this simpatico they gained the understanding of the natural ley lines, and
> > the capability to channel such large amounts of meghveil needed to cast
> > the most powerful of spells. I might be tempted to call this not "gaining
> > a bloodline" but rather "becoming Dragon-like." Perhaps that's what the
> > original meaning of wizard was: "Dragon-kin" or "One-who-became-
> > Dragonlike."
> ><
I like this.
> >
> Thank you Mark, for your insightful comments. I liked your suggestions
> and thought they reinforce my arguements well, especially your
> 'Dragonification' part. This is similar to how I see elves and their
> relationship with nature - I wish I had thought of that. Thus, Dragons
> are perhaps personifications of mebhaighl itself, while elves are a
> personification of nature which is a physical manifestation of
> mebhaighl. How does that sound. Thus, elves and dragons are perhaps
> 'cousins', from a magical standpoint, in Aebrynnis.
>
Same thing I was thinking.
> The only other parts of this post I would like to add to are that 1) all
> elves, as only stated in the BoM (I am not a rules lawyer here), are
> capable of casting true magic, thus, in effect, are considered to have
> bloodlines, right?
Wrong. Elves can cast true magic. That does not mean that they are assumed
to have bloodlines, nor that they are capable of casting realm spells.
Note, that this does not say that the majority of
> elves have the _knowledge_ to do so. Okay, now anyone who can cast true
> magic can cast realm magic if only they have access to source holdings,
> is this not technically correct?
Wrong. You need a bloodline to cast realm magic, even if you are an elf.
Now, since elves are able to cast true
> magic, what stopping them from finding a source, 'investing' themselves
> in it (as per elven investiture in BoP), gaining regency from it (yes, I
> know this is strictly 'against the rules', but it doesn't make sense
> that they are able to cast true magic like a blooded human and not be
> able to hold source holdings for regency like blooded humans only
> because of blood - which most elves wouldn't need IMO for the purposes
> of elven holdings)
Why don't elven rulers need bloodline in your opinion? Certainly, I allow
commoners to gain holdings and take actions, but since they don't have any
Regency points to boost their chances, they generally make poor rulers.
and cast realm spells. In effect, since they could
> cast true magic, why can't they cast realm magic if they have (access
> to) a source holding.
Because you need a bloodline for realm magic.
Moreover, wizards can 'loan' their source
> holdings to other regents to use temporarily. Thus any elf, IMO, could
> use source holdings, IF they had the knowledge of how to use them.
And a bloodline. Yes, I know I'm beginning to irritate you *grin*.
>
> Secondly, if you have a fan handy, pick it up and place it in front of
> an electric fan. The wind is blown in directions you position the fan
> in. If you have a big enough fan, and the strength to hold it, you
> could conceivably change the direction of a whole lot of air. This is
> how I view the comments of a log in a river. Elves, IMO, have a much
> stronger will with respect to controlling mebhaighl, unlike any other
> race (except dragons), and thus if they only had the knowledge (the 'big
> fan' as it where, since they already have the 'strength'), any elf could
> conceivably wield mighty magic - no divine blood required.
It's your campaign...
One thing I noticed was, the BoM mentions the ancient ley lines and how
the elves used them, yet the elves could not cast realm magic before
Deismaar. Maybe they used the mebhaigl for other purposes? Alas, the AD&D
system is ill suited to reflect that.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
...I still think a clone is a continuation of one's self...
Rasmus Juul Wagner
Technical University of Denmark
c958650@student.dtu.dk
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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03-07-1998, 10:46 PM #26Bret W. DavenportGuest
Elves and Realm Spells
> But doesn't being a wizard mean that you have to have the ability to
> cast true magic, and that being the case, since any elf can cast true
> magic they can also make realm spells work?
>
> Perhaps I am quibbling over loopholes or griping about a little thing.
> Does anyone else see the situation that I am talking about? Whatever
> the case, please don't take this to mean that everyone has to see my
> way, and that DMs can't run their campaigns the way they want them too.
That's kind of reverse logic. It doesn't work. If A is part of B, doesn't
mean that B is part of A.
Also, all elves are _capable_ of true magic. Very, very few actually ever
find the talent to exploit it.
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03-07-1998, 11:43 PM #27Gary V. FossGuest
Elves and Realm Spells
James Ruhland wrote:
> Regarding who can cast realm spells:
>
> > In the Ruins of Empire description of Tuarhievel's source holdings is the
> > cryptic comment that though "[t]he prince dominates the magic of
> Tuarhievel...
> > [he] graciously allows elf mages inhabiting his kingdom the opportunity
> to
> > siphon what they need for their own spells."
>
> > This seems to imply that other mages can cast realm spells if they have
> access
> > to a Source holding and that they need not be the controlling regent of
> that
> > Source in order to do so. The only requirements to casting realm spells
> seem
> > to be:
>
> IMO, the Tuarhievel SB was insufficiently precise. . .I thought it would
> imply only Blooded Elven mages. But it didn't say that. Anyhow, the BOM is
> pretty precice on who's able to cast Realm Spells: only Blooded Wizards.
> Look at it this way, also: go right ahead and cast the Realm Spell. .
> .what, you don't have the RPs? Here, I'll grant you some. . .now we get
> back to my q. (regarding our unblooded despot) as to if you can really
> Grant (or via vassalage or whatever) RPs to unblooded people.
Hmm. Good point. The fourth thing I neglected to note in my little list of
requirements was the RP's to do the job. These could be passed along by the
regent as you point out, but they are of rather limited supply making it seem
rather more than "gracious" to hand them out to any apprentice with an itch to
raise a Legion of Dead....
I think part of the problem people are having here with Realm magic--and with
the concept of unblooded rulers--is that we are trying to justify a magical,
game construct to our mundane, rational minds. Back in the early days of
gaming I heard several people explain an illogical (sometimes stupid) occurance
in a game by saying "it's just magical." That explanation seemed weak back and
the day and seems even sillier now that gaming has evolved so far past the days
when you couldn't even buy dice that weren't six-sided.
As a result of the evolution of the game, however, there is a desire by players
to explain all magic. Many people want to see Realm magic as simply 10th level
spells with a few rarer and more esoteric components, a view that I am somewhat
sypathetic to. As players and DM's of a game, we should find that game
explicable shouldn't we?
Well, here's a less philosophical point.... Elves had access to Sources and
Ley Lines before Deismar correct? Presumably, they used this access to cast
the pre-cataclysmic version of Realm spells. Otherwise, what would be the
point? Perhaps, the ability to use realm spells is inherit to living in
Cerilia, but being a blooded mage simply facilitates casting realm spells and
ruling the land much more directly than an unblooded character could. What if
it took a coven of magic-using elves six months or a year to cast a Warding
spell? As you point out, elves have plenty of time on their hands, they might
see this as reasonable. Indeed, the ability to cast magic spells that effect
an entire province would be very powerful even if it took three, four, ten
times longer than post-Deismar Realm magic.
Perhaps, the REAL problem that elves have with humans, and the reason they have
fallen behind and retreated into their forested domains is that they are simply
not as able to compete with humans who are more reliant upon their blooded
abilities?
I have a similar point of view regarding unblooded rulers. Sure, they could
exist, but they would be much less effective than blooded ones. It takes a
blooded regent only a month to create a holding at level 0, and only another
month to rule it up to level 1. A nonblooded regent might spend a year doing
the same. To continue the Darwinian evolution analogy, a blooded regent can
simply out-compete a nonblooded one. Nonblooded citizens recognize this
ability and support a blooded ruler over a nonblooded one. If a nonblooded
character could rise to rule a realm and somehow be as effective as a blooded
one, than the people would simply mandate his/her rule.
> Well, we are talking Immortal Elves here (oh, god. . .just had a vision of
> Harlequin/Laughing Man & Ehran the Scribe/Wordsmyth. . .deja-vu all over
> again). They can afford to spend time on projects that shorter-lived people
> would consider not worth the effort. So, if you're of the belief that Elves
> live under no restrictions (see my earlier rant about that), then I see no
> reason why they wouldn't spend the time (a insignificant fragment of their
> long life) to learn Realm Spells.
Another good point. In fact, it occurs to me as a fairly recent college
graduate that young mages (especially elven ones who have more time to do so)
might study realm magic as an acedemic exercise, with only little hope of ever
actually applying it. (I feel similarly about my class on John Milton the last
semester of school....)
This seems to support the idea of Realms spells with a six-month casting time,
doesn't it? There's some interesting adventure possibilities here. What if a
regent had to confront a cabal of magic-users who had been spending the past
several months building up to the casting of a Mass Destruction spell for
whatever nefarious, evil mage reasons they might have cooked up?
- -G
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03-08-1998, 12:40 AM #28James RuhlandGuest
Elves and Realm Spells
> Well, here's a less philosophical point.... Elves had access to Sources
and
> Ley Lines before Deismar correct? Presumably, they used this access to
cast
> the pre-cataclysmic version of Realm spells.
>
Yep; one of my initial posts on this topic made an initial stab at this.
Perhaps Pre-Deismar magic worked under slightly different "Laws". Perhaps
Realm Spells could be cast by Elves, using Blood Points, not Regency
points. I.E. perhaps they powered the spells using sacrifices (no, no;
we're talking ELVES here, right? so they didn't use REAL people to power
their spells; only goblins & humans, not Elves ["real people"]: after all,
goblins & humans are cute and all, but they're more akin to smart animals,
they're not realy sentient creatures, and they have no spirit, like "real
people [Elves] do. . .
> the same. To continue the Darwinian evolution analogy, a blooded regent
can
> simply out-compete a nonblooded one. Nonblooded citizens recognize this
> ability and support a blooded ruler over a nonblooded one. If a
nonblooded
> character could rise to rule a realm and somehow be as effective as a
blooded
> one, than the people would simply mandate his/her rule.
>
I agree with you on that. Again in a similar post I implied that but used
less-effective arguments, IMO.
>
> Another good point. In fact, it occurs to me as a fairly recent college
> graduate that young mages (especially elven ones who have more time to do
so)
> might study realm magic as an acedemic exercise, with only little hope of
ever
> actually applying it. (I feel similarly about my class on John Milton
the last
> semester of school....)
>
Hmmmn. . .well, one should study Philiosphia in order to learn how to lead
a good life, dedicated to the pursuit of virtue as well as pleasure, not
just because you have some spare time on your hands; the latter course will
lead to Clintonism. . .wait, it has. Nevermind.
> This seems to support the idea of Realms spells with a six-month casting
time,
> doesn't it? There's some interesting adventure possibilities here. What
if a
> regent had to confront a cabal of magic-users who had been spending the
past
> several months building up to the casting of a Mass Destruction spell for
> whatever nefarious, evil mage reasons they might have cooked up?
>
IMO, that's fine. Perhaps your players learn of this cabal, an effort by
some Wizards (elven? half-elven? Blooded human scions [non-regents] ?)
attempting to use some reciently re-descovered "Ancient Elven Ritual Magic
["Realm Spells"]" in some nefarious plot. . .will the plot work? The
players can't know in advance. . .all they do know is that these rituals
were effective before Deismar, but were forgotten/dropped in favor of more
efficient Realm Spells powered by Sources & RPs, even by the Elves. But
who's to say they've lost (or retained) their power? Only the DM knows for
sure, and he isn't saying. They'd better go investigate. . .
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03-09-1998, 03:51 AM #29Anthony K.G.ShewanGuest
Elves and Realm Spells
Hello,
My name is Anthony and I've been "lurking" in the shadows of the list for
some time now. Perhaps now that I have responded once maybe I'll start
respond more. Please bear with me as I am new to such on-line forums.
> darkstar wrote:
> > 2. I do not think that the common garden variety elf can cast realm
> > spells though as it does state in the rule book that only a Regent
> > Wizard has the power to cast such powerful magic, because other wizards
> > lack the supernatural conection with the land. This means that anyone
> > who has a source holding (or the correct level) can cast realm magic.
> ><
>
> True enough, except that as elves don't need to be blooded, this means
> that an unblooded elf should be able to hold source holdings as if they
> were of the blood, does it not? Does anyone have a different
> interpretation?
>
My Response:
I don't have a rule book in front of me but...
IMO not only does an individual need to be able to cast True Magic but they
need to be able to control a source in the sense that the Land as accepted
this person not just "I am going to stand here and shoot anyone who gets to
close." i.e.. they must have a bloodline. So because an unblooded elves
can't gain RP for the source they can't cast Realm Magic. Otherwise because
the connection to the Land is the same for all holdings, unblooded elves
could gain RP for any holding (dependant on class) could they not?
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03-09-1998, 04:11 AM #30Anthony K.G.ShewanGuest
Elves and Realm Spells
> The only other parts of this post I would like to add to are that 1) all
> elves, as only stated in the BoM (I am not a rules lawyer here), are
> capable of casting true magic, thus, in effect, are considered to have
> bloodlines, right? Note, that this does not say that the majority of
> elves have the _knowledge_ to do so. Okay, now anyone who can cast true
> magic can cast realm magic if only they have access to source holdings,
> is this not technically correct? Now, since elves are able to cast true
> magic, what stopping them from finding a source, 'investing' themselves
> in it (as per elven investiture in BoP), gaining regency from it (yes, I
> know this is strictly 'against the rules', but it doesn't make sense
> that they are able to cast true magic like a blooded human and not be
> able to hold source holdings for regency like blooded humans only
> because of blood - which most elves wouldn't need IMO for the purposes
> of elven holdings) and cast realm spells. In effect, since they could
> cast true magic, why can't they cast realm magic if they have (access
> to) a source holding. >
Well Darren,
I still disagree. I would not consider elves ability to cast True Magic as
a substitute bloodline when it comes to Source holdings. Now off on a
tangent ... I've always considered elves to Chaotic in nature (as opposed
to Lawful) therefore the idea of Realm Magic (which aids "society") would
be somewhat of an alien concept to them.
>Moreover, wizards can 'loan' their source holdings to other regents to use
temporarily. >Thus any elf, IMO, could use source holdings, IF they had
the knowledge of how to use >them.
Ok. This I can see. the "IF" part being the elf wizard has a Realm Spell in
their spellbook and they could read it. Can magic-users (as a class) read
magic that is beyond them? Can a Magician read a 5th level spell of the
Necromancy School?
Regards
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