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  1. #21
    Brandon Quina
    Guest

    Elves and Realm Spells

    > Interesting. I had always thought that true magic's power or energy
    > came from the surroundings, not from within, as it does for realm
    > spells. In other words, true magic is just a lesser version of realm
    > magic, and that true magic was an extension of mebhaighl. Lesser
    > magic, on the other hand, came from within. The divine bloodlines
    > 'simply' allowed people previously unable to feel the flow of
    > mebhaighl to feel it and tap into it (for elves and dragons, on the
    > other hand, this has always been a natural ability).

    Hmmm. My viewpoint has always been that the energy from magic
    comes from the surroundings and is channeled through the wizard.
    Those that can only command lesser magic arnt that good at
    channeling the energy. True magic people have learned to channel
    the energy from their surroundings.

    Realm magic, however, is exclusive to the blooded. They have learned
    to channel MASSIVE amounts of energy through them-- provided they
    have access to a source.

    All three types of magic are diffrent, and being able to cast one
    dosnt mean you can cast the others.

    > The only counterpoint to this suggestion I can think of is that realm
    > spells really only needs a source holding of sufficent level to power
    > their energies and wizards are just there to guide it, but don't need
    > to be a conduit - I assume that the actual power would not come from
    > the wizard, but from the source. Thus, the only people able to tap
    > into source holdings to cast realm spells would be beings able to cast
    > true magic (which, in the case of my arguement, would include elves).

    However. The Unblooded (even elves) /cant/ get this power from the
    source. They can control the source, possibly even empower it-- but
    they cant use it to cast spells. The energy just stsys there.

    The wizard is taking the energy from the source, and using it
    to cast the spell. It is /him/ that is important, the source
    is just providing the energy. If it was otherwise, then the
    casters level wouldnt make any diffrence.

    And only people with a touch of the divine (ie. a bloodline)
    can do this. Even if the bloodline comes from 'the land' (which
    I still think is total hogwash) its still a DIVINE bloodline.

    The gods died, and the world was saturated in their energys.
    Ive even had my adventurers go to places that were SATURATED
    in one of the gods energys. There was a tree there that grew
    gold coins . They tried to cut it down and take it
    home, but it died.


    Now, if somebody wants to say that elves are special and
    can do anything they want. Cast realm spells, control
    source holdings, collect regency, be 'regents'. Then thats
    fine, however I would like to know the answers to two
    questions..


    1) Why do elves have all these powers??

    2) How come they've managed to get nailed by the humans so badly??





    - --
    (lore@tmgbbs.com) \|/// Zzzzzzzzzzzz
    Brandon Lance Quina (- -)
    ICQ Number: 6809944 ---ooO(_)Ooo---

  2. #22
    James Ruhland
    Guest

    Elves and Realm Spells

    Regarding who can cast realm spells:

    > In the Ruins of Empire description of Tuarhievel's source holdings is the
    > cryptic comment that though "[t]he prince dominates the magic of
    Tuarhievel...
    > [he] graciously allows elf mages inhabiting his kingdom the opportunity
    to
    > siphon what they need for their own spells."

    > This seems to imply that other mages can cast realm spells if they have
    access
    > to a Source holding and that they need not be the controlling regent of
    that
    > Source in order to do so. The only requirements to casting realm spells
    seem
    > to be:

    IMO, the Tuarhievel SB was insufficiently precise. . .I thought it would
    imply only Blooded Elven mages. But it didn't say that. Anyhow, the BOM is
    pretty precice on who's able to cast Realm Spells: only Blooded Wizards.
    Look at it this way, also: go right ahead and cast the Realm Spell. .
    .what, you don't have the RPs? Here, I'll grant you some. . .now we get
    back to my q. (regarding our unblooded despot) as to if you can really
    Grant (or via vassalage or whatever) RPs to unblooded people.

    > This last requirement is something that should probably be noted. Mages
    who do
    > not control a Source holding would have little reason to learn a realm
    spell.
    > They can't cast it. Why learn it? Oh, they might do so in the hope of
    being
    > able to cast it one day, but that seems a rather slim reason to spend so
    much
    > time and energy, doesn't it?

    Well, we are talking Immortal Elves here (oh, god. . .just had a vision of
    Harlequin/Laughing Man & Ehran the Scribe/Wordsmyth. . .deja-vu all over
    again). They can afford to spend time on projects that shorter-lived people
    would consider not worth the effort. So, if you're of the belief that Elves
    live under no restrictions (see my earlier rant about that), then I see no
    reason why they wouldn't spend the time (a insignificant fragment of their
    long life) to learn Realm Spells.

  3. #23
    James Ruhland
    Guest

    Elves and Realm Spells

    >
    > I do not want to offend anyone but this way of explaining things in
    > "official material" - i.e. things are like this and no explanation
    > why - worries me a little bit.
    >
    Well, it doesn't offend me; one of the funnest things to discuss on this
    board are the "why's" for various rules, and also if there should be rules
    variants.

    I've always held that just like there are two kinds of people in this
    world*, there are two kinds of BR gamers: thouse who belive Elves operate
    under some restrictions, and thouse who believe they are akin to Living
    Gods *G*. If you want Elves to cast Realm Spells irregardless of being
    Blooded in your campaign, I see no reason why they shouldn't be able to. If
    you think, further, that they should be able to cast them "on the fly",
    without having to tap a source (just because the Rules say you need a Level
    5 Source doesn't tell you why, does it?), the that's what you should do.
    And you can come up with any number of reasons why this is so (I.E. "Elves
    have a special connection to nature that allows them to tap Sources that
    others just can't, and they get free RPs from nature so they can cast these
    spells without being Regents.") Or, if you choose to follow the rules as
    written, you can come up with any number of reasons why (I.E. the
    Birthright reasons; Bloodlines allow you to tie yourself to the land and
    it's Sources, Bloodlines allow you to accumulate RPs that are nessisary to
    cast any Realm spell, etc.), or whatever other explaination that fits best
    into your own campaign. No reason for every campaign to be the same, and
    operate under the same rules, as every other campaign.
    And I, personally, would enjoy seeing your "home grown" reasons for why
    Elves (or whoever) do or don't live under the same restrictions that apply
    to every other Cerilian.

    I'd give my best answers to your other questions, but I'm sleepy. . .plus,
    I'm not the Guardian of Orthodoxy; IMO, people should decide these "why
    this rather than that" questions for their own campaigns, for the very
    reason you gave: so that everything is individualized, every campaign
    unique, and, to use a much debased word, for "diversity" (let a thousand
    flowers bloom, to quote a bloodthirsty tyrant).

  4. #24
    Jim Cooper
    Guest

    Elves and Realm Spells

    Brandon Quina wrote:
    > <
    > Remember. Its the /WIZARD/ the makes the realm spell work, not the
    > source. The source is just supplying the energy. :)
    > <

    But doesn't being a wizard mean that you have to have the ability to
    cast true magic, and that being the case, since any elf can cast true
    magic they can also make realm spells work?

    Perhaps I am quibbling over loopholes or griping about a little thing.
    Does anyone else see the situation that I am talking about? Whatever
    the case, please don't take this to mean that everyone has to see my
    way, and that DMs can't run their campaigns the way they want them too.

    Darren

  5. #25
    Rasmus Juul Wagner
    Guest

    Elves and Realm Spells

    On Fri, 6 Mar 1998, Jim Cooper wrote:

    > Mark A Vandermeulen wrote:
    > ><
    > > This is an interesting idea, although a bit off-canon as _I_ understand
    > > it. It might be that the elven word for "wizard" (which humans adopted)
    > > originally meant "Walker Alone," or something like that, and refered to
    > > the fact that some elves were able to spend a large amount of time
    > > communing with the land rather than with elves society, and in return for
    > > this simpatico they gained the understanding of the natural ley lines, and
    > > the capability to channel such large amounts of meghveil needed to cast
    > > the most powerful of spells. I might be tempted to call this not "gaining
    > > a bloodline" but rather "becoming Dragon-like." Perhaps that's what the
    > > original meaning of wizard was: "Dragon-kin" or "One-who-became-
    > > Dragonlike."
    > ><

    I like this.


    > >
    > Thank you Mark, for your insightful comments. I liked your suggestions
    > and thought they reinforce my arguements well, especially your
    > 'Dragonification' part. This is similar to how I see elves and their
    > relationship with nature - I wish I had thought of that. Thus, Dragons
    > are perhaps personifications of mebhaighl itself, while elves are a
    > personification of nature which is a physical manifestation of
    > mebhaighl. How does that sound. Thus, elves and dragons are perhaps
    > 'cousins', from a magical standpoint, in Aebrynnis.
    >

    Same thing I was thinking.

    > The only other parts of this post I would like to add to are that 1) all
    > elves, as only stated in the BoM (I am not a rules lawyer here), are
    > capable of casting true magic, thus, in effect, are considered to have
    > bloodlines, right?

    Wrong. Elves can cast true magic. That does not mean that they are assumed
    to have bloodlines, nor that they are capable of casting realm spells.

    Note, that this does not say that the majority of
    > elves have the _knowledge_ to do so. Okay, now anyone who can cast true
    > magic can cast realm magic if only they have access to source holdings,
    > is this not technically correct?

    Wrong. You need a bloodline to cast realm magic, even if you are an elf.

    Now, since elves are able to cast true
    > magic, what stopping them from finding a source, 'investing' themselves
    > in it (as per elven investiture in BoP), gaining regency from it (yes, I
    > know this is strictly 'against the rules', but it doesn't make sense
    > that they are able to cast true magic like a blooded human and not be
    > able to hold source holdings for regency like blooded humans only
    > because of blood - which most elves wouldn't need IMO for the purposes
    > of elven holdings)

    Why don't elven rulers need bloodline in your opinion? Certainly, I allow
    commoners to gain holdings and take actions, but since they don't have any
    Regency points to boost their chances, they generally make poor rulers.

    and cast realm spells. In effect, since they could
    > cast true magic, why can't they cast realm magic if they have (access
    > to) a source holding.

    Because you need a bloodline for realm magic.

    Moreover, wizards can 'loan' their source
    > holdings to other regents to use temporarily. Thus any elf, IMO, could
    > use source holdings, IF they had the knowledge of how to use them.

    And a bloodline. Yes, I know I'm beginning to irritate you *grin*.

    >
    > Secondly, if you have a fan handy, pick it up and place it in front of
    > an electric fan. The wind is blown in directions you position the fan
    > in. If you have a big enough fan, and the strength to hold it, you
    > could conceivably change the direction of a whole lot of air. This is
    > how I view the comments of a log in a river. Elves, IMO, have a much
    > stronger will with respect to controlling mebhaighl, unlike any other
    > race (except dragons), and thus if they only had the knowledge (the 'big
    > fan' as it where, since they already have the 'strength'), any elf could
    > conceivably wield mighty magic - no divine blood required.

    It's your campaign...

    One thing I noticed was, the BoM mentions the ancient ley lines and how
    the elves used them, yet the elves could not cast realm magic before
    Deismaar. Maybe they used the mebhaigl for other purposes? Alas, the AD&D
    system is ill suited to reflect that.



    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ...I still think a clone is a continuation of one's self...

    Rasmus Juul Wagner
    Technical University of Denmark
    c958650@student.dtu.dk
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

  6. #26
    Bret W. Davenport
    Guest

    Elves and Realm Spells

    > But doesn't being a wizard mean that you have to have the ability to
    > cast true magic, and that being the case, since any elf can cast true
    > magic they can also make realm spells work?
    >
    > Perhaps I am quibbling over loopholes or griping about a little thing.
    > Does anyone else see the situation that I am talking about? Whatever
    > the case, please don't take this to mean that everyone has to see my
    > way, and that DMs can't run their campaigns the way they want them too.

    That's kind of reverse logic. It doesn't work. If A is part of B, doesn't
    mean that B is part of A.

    Also, all elves are _capable_ of true magic. Very, very few actually ever
    find the talent to exploit it.

  7. #27
    Gary V. Foss
    Guest

    Elves and Realm Spells

    James Ruhland wrote:

    > Regarding who can cast realm spells:
    >
    > > In the Ruins of Empire description of Tuarhievel's source holdings is the
    > > cryptic comment that though "[t]he prince dominates the magic of
    > Tuarhievel...
    > > [he] graciously allows elf mages inhabiting his kingdom the opportunity
    > to
    > > siphon what they need for their own spells."
    >
    > > This seems to imply that other mages can cast realm spells if they have
    > access
    > > to a Source holding and that they need not be the controlling regent of
    > that
    > > Source in order to do so. The only requirements to casting realm spells
    > seem
    > > to be:
    >
    > IMO, the Tuarhievel SB was insufficiently precise. . .I thought it would
    > imply only Blooded Elven mages. But it didn't say that. Anyhow, the BOM is
    > pretty precice on who's able to cast Realm Spells: only Blooded Wizards.
    > Look at it this way, also: go right ahead and cast the Realm Spell. .
    > .what, you don't have the RPs? Here, I'll grant you some. . .now we get
    > back to my q. (regarding our unblooded despot) as to if you can really
    > Grant (or via vassalage or whatever) RPs to unblooded people.

    Hmm. Good point. The fourth thing I neglected to note in my little list of
    requirements was the RP's to do the job. These could be passed along by the
    regent as you point out, but they are of rather limited supply making it seem
    rather more than "gracious" to hand them out to any apprentice with an itch to
    raise a Legion of Dead....

    I think part of the problem people are having here with Realm magic--and with
    the concept of unblooded rulers--is that we are trying to justify a magical,
    game construct to our mundane, rational minds. Back in the early days of
    gaming I heard several people explain an illogical (sometimes stupid) occurance
    in a game by saying "it's just magical." That explanation seemed weak back and
    the day and seems even sillier now that gaming has evolved so far past the days
    when you couldn't even buy dice that weren't six-sided.

    As a result of the evolution of the game, however, there is a desire by players
    to explain all magic. Many people want to see Realm magic as simply 10th level
    spells with a few rarer and more esoteric components, a view that I am somewhat
    sypathetic to. As players and DM's of a game, we should find that game
    explicable shouldn't we?

    Well, here's a less philosophical point.... Elves had access to Sources and
    Ley Lines before Deismar correct? Presumably, they used this access to cast
    the pre-cataclysmic version of Realm spells. Otherwise, what would be the
    point? Perhaps, the ability to use realm spells is inherit to living in
    Cerilia, but being a blooded mage simply facilitates casting realm spells and
    ruling the land much more directly than an unblooded character could. What if
    it took a coven of magic-using elves six months or a year to cast a Warding
    spell? As you point out, elves have plenty of time on their hands, they might
    see this as reasonable. Indeed, the ability to cast magic spells that effect
    an entire province would be very powerful even if it took three, four, ten
    times longer than post-Deismar Realm magic.

    Perhaps, the REAL problem that elves have with humans, and the reason they have
    fallen behind and retreated into their forested domains is that they are simply
    not as able to compete with humans who are more reliant upon their blooded
    abilities?

    I have a similar point of view regarding unblooded rulers. Sure, they could
    exist, but they would be much less effective than blooded ones. It takes a
    blooded regent only a month to create a holding at level 0, and only another
    month to rule it up to level 1. A nonblooded regent might spend a year doing
    the same. To continue the Darwinian evolution analogy, a blooded regent can
    simply out-compete a nonblooded one. Nonblooded citizens recognize this
    ability and support a blooded ruler over a nonblooded one. If a nonblooded
    character could rise to rule a realm and somehow be as effective as a blooded
    one, than the people would simply mandate his/her rule.

    > Well, we are talking Immortal Elves here (oh, god. . .just had a vision of
    > Harlequin/Laughing Man & Ehran the Scribe/Wordsmyth. . .deja-vu all over
    > again). They can afford to spend time on projects that shorter-lived people
    > would consider not worth the effort. So, if you're of the belief that Elves
    > live under no restrictions (see my earlier rant about that), then I see no
    > reason why they wouldn't spend the time (a insignificant fragment of their
    > long life) to learn Realm Spells.

    Another good point. In fact, it occurs to me as a fairly recent college
    graduate that young mages (especially elven ones who have more time to do so)
    might study realm magic as an acedemic exercise, with only little hope of ever
    actually applying it. (I feel similarly about my class on John Milton the last
    semester of school....)

    This seems to support the idea of Realms spells with a six-month casting time,
    doesn't it? There's some interesting adventure possibilities here. What if a
    regent had to confront a cabal of magic-users who had been spending the past
    several months building up to the casting of a Mass Destruction spell for
    whatever nefarious, evil mage reasons they might have cooked up?

    - -G

  8. #28
    James Ruhland
    Guest

    Elves and Realm Spells

    > Well, here's a less philosophical point.... Elves had access to Sources
    and
    > Ley Lines before Deismar correct? Presumably, they used this access to
    cast
    > the pre-cataclysmic version of Realm spells.
    >
    Yep; one of my initial posts on this topic made an initial stab at this.
    Perhaps Pre-Deismar magic worked under slightly different "Laws". Perhaps
    Realm Spells could be cast by Elves, using Blood Points, not Regency
    points. I.E. perhaps they powered the spells using sacrifices (no, no;
    we're talking ELVES here, right? so they didn't use REAL people to power
    their spells; only goblins & humans, not Elves ["real people"]: after all,
    goblins & humans are cute and all, but they're more akin to smart animals,
    they're not realy sentient creatures, and they have no spirit, like "real
    people [Elves] do. . .

    > the same. To continue the Darwinian evolution analogy, a blooded regent
    can
    > simply out-compete a nonblooded one. Nonblooded citizens recognize this
    > ability and support a blooded ruler over a nonblooded one. If a
    nonblooded
    > character could rise to rule a realm and somehow be as effective as a
    blooded
    > one, than the people would simply mandate his/her rule.
    >
    I agree with you on that. Again in a similar post I implied that but used
    less-effective arguments, IMO.

    >
    > Another good point. In fact, it occurs to me as a fairly recent college
    > graduate that young mages (especially elven ones who have more time to do
    so)
    > might study realm magic as an acedemic exercise, with only little hope of
    ever
    > actually applying it. (I feel similarly about my class on John Milton
    the last
    > semester of school....)
    >
    Hmmmn. . .well, one should study Philiosphia in order to learn how to lead
    a good life, dedicated to the pursuit of virtue as well as pleasure, not
    just because you have some spare time on your hands; the latter course will
    lead to Clintonism. . .wait, it has. Nevermind.

    > This seems to support the idea of Realms spells with a six-month casting
    time,
    > doesn't it? There's some interesting adventure possibilities here. What
    if a
    > regent had to confront a cabal of magic-users who had been spending the
    past
    > several months building up to the casting of a Mass Destruction spell for
    > whatever nefarious, evil mage reasons they might have cooked up?
    >
    IMO, that's fine. Perhaps your players learn of this cabal, an effort by
    some Wizards (elven? half-elven? Blooded human scions [non-regents] ?)
    attempting to use some reciently re-descovered "Ancient Elven Ritual Magic
    ["Realm Spells"]" in some nefarious plot. . .will the plot work? The
    players can't know in advance. . .all they do know is that these rituals
    were effective before Deismar, but were forgotten/dropped in favor of more
    efficient Realm Spells powered by Sources & RPs, even by the Elves. But
    who's to say they've lost (or retained) their power? Only the DM knows for
    sure, and he isn't saying. They'd better go investigate. . .

  9. #29
    Anthony K.G.Shewan
    Guest

    Elves and Realm Spells

    Hello,
    My name is Anthony and I've been "lurking" in the shadows of the list for
    some time now. Perhaps now that I have responded once maybe I'll start
    respond more. Please bear with me as I am new to such on-line forums.

    > darkstar wrote:
    > > 2. I do not think that the common garden variety elf can cast realm
    > > spells though as it does state in the rule book that only a Regent
    > > Wizard has the power to cast such powerful magic, because other wizards
    > > lack the supernatural conection with the land. This means that anyone
    > > who has a source holding (or the correct level) can cast realm magic.
    > ><
    >
    > True enough, except that as elves don't need to be blooded, this means
    > that an unblooded elf should be able to hold source holdings as if they
    > were of the blood, does it not? Does anyone have a different
    > interpretation?
    >
    My Response:
    I don't have a rule book in front of me but...
    IMO not only does an individual need to be able to cast True Magic but they
    need to be able to control a source in the sense that the Land as accepted
    this person not just "I am going to stand here and shoot anyone who gets to
    close." i.e.. they must have a bloodline. So because an unblooded elves
    can't gain RP for the source they can't cast Realm Magic. Otherwise because
    the connection to the Land is the same for all holdings, unblooded elves
    could gain RP for any holding (dependant on class) could they not?

  10. #30
    Anthony K.G.Shewan
    Guest

    Elves and Realm Spells

    > The only other parts of this post I would like to add to are that 1) all
    > elves, as only stated in the BoM (I am not a rules lawyer here), are
    > capable of casting true magic, thus, in effect, are considered to have
    > bloodlines, right? Note, that this does not say that the majority of
    > elves have the _knowledge_ to do so. Okay, now anyone who can cast true
    > magic can cast realm magic if only they have access to source holdings,
    > is this not technically correct? Now, since elves are able to cast true
    > magic, what stopping them from finding a source, 'investing' themselves
    > in it (as per elven investiture in BoP), gaining regency from it (yes, I
    > know this is strictly 'against the rules', but it doesn't make sense
    > that they are able to cast true magic like a blooded human and not be
    > able to hold source holdings for regency like blooded humans only
    > because of blood - which most elves wouldn't need IMO for the purposes
    > of elven holdings) and cast realm spells. In effect, since they could
    > cast true magic, why can't they cast realm magic if they have (access
    > to) a source holding. >

    Well Darren,
    I still disagree. I would not consider elves ability to cast True Magic as
    a substitute bloodline when it comes to Source holdings. Now off on a
    tangent ... I've always considered elves to Chaotic in nature (as opposed
    to Lawful) therefore the idea of Realm Magic (which aids "society") would
    be somewhat of an alien concept to them.


    >Moreover, wizards can 'loan' their source holdings to other regents to use
    temporarily. >Thus any elf, IMO, could use source holdings, IF they had
    the knowledge of how to use >them.


    Ok. This I can see. the "IF" part being the elf wizard has a Realm Spell in
    their spellbook and they could read it. Can magic-users (as a class) read
    magic that is beyond them? Can a Magician read a 5th level spell of the
    Necromancy School?

    Regards

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