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Thread: Elves and Realm Spells
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03-05-1998, 06:59 PM #1Bryan PalmerGuest
Elves and Realm Spells
If I'm not mistaken, it was the elves that first taught humans how to
use "True Magic" or the type of magic required to perform realm spells.
This occurred long before the battle of Deismar and the time of
"blooded" characters. The elves were able to perform true magic because
of their natural connections to the land or the natural ability to
gather the power that wizard-regents acquire from their magical sources.
In my game, I have interpreted this to mean that all elven mages can
cast true or realm magic. How else would they have been able to hold
off the onslaught of human encroachment for so long. However, to
balance the game I have greatly limited the number of elven mages. This
was quite easy since none of my player characters are demi-human and
they have a strong desire to leave those "crazy elves" alone.
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03-05-1998, 07:26 PM #2gandalfGuest
Elves and Realm Spells
This would be impossible; elves teaching humans. For the mere fact that
humans could not master True Magic before Deismaar, being unblooded.
However, I do agree that they must have had access to Realm Spells before
the Battle.
- -----Original Message-----
From: Bryan Palmer
To: Birthright Listserver (E-mail)
Date: Friday, March 06, 1998 01:18
Subject: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Elves and Realm Spells
>If I'm not mistaken, it was the elves that first taught humans how to
>use "True Magic" or the type of magic required to perform realm spells.
>This occurred long before the battle of Deismar and the time of
>"blooded" characters. The elves were able to perform true magic because
>of their natural connections to the land or the natural ability to
>gather the power that wizard-regents acquire from their magical sources.
>
>In my game, I have interpreted this to mean that all elven mages can
>cast true or realm magic. How else would they have been able to hold
>off the onslaught of human encroachment for so long. However, to
>balance the game I have greatly limited the number of elven mages. This
>was quite easy since none of my player characters are demi-human and
>they have a strong desire to leave those "crazy elves" alone.
>************************************************* **************************
>>'unsubscribe birthright' as the body of the message.
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03-05-1998, 08:37 PM #3Brandon QuinaGuest
Elves and Realm Spells
> If I'm not mistaken, it was the elves that first taught humans how to
> use "True Magic" or the type of magic required to perform realm
> spells.
Humans have always been able to be magicians, and thus perform
/lesser/ magic. This consists of 1-2nd level spells, and the
entire illusion/divination schools.
However... They /could not/ learn true magic before the battle
of Mount Deismaar, that was exclusivly the province of the elves
and the gods. However, the /elves/ could use true magic.
However, before Deismaar /noone/ but the gods could use realm
magic. Not even the elves. Elves weilded magic that was higher
than 2nd level in all the spheres, and could probally use battle
magic as well-- thats how they held their own.
But even elves couldnt cast realm spells. To cast realm spells
one must have a touch of the divine-- a bloodline.
Its all explained in the rulebook
> This occurred long before the battle of Deismar and the time of
> "blooded" characters. The elves were able to perform true magic
> because of their natural connections to the land or the natural
> ability to gather the power that wizard-regents acquire from their
> magical sources.
The 'sources' are needed for realm magic. Elves knew about forces,
knew about mebhaighl, knew about leylines, but they /didnt/ know
what they were for or how to use them. They couldnt use realm spells.
Instead, they could work the mebhaighl around them to create powerful
magics that were beyond the ken of mortals. (Yes, mortals. Elves
/arnt/ mortal. There immortal.) However, even they didnt have the
divine power to bend sources and ley lines to their whim.
> In my game, I have interpreted this to mean that all elven mages can
> cast true or realm magic. How else would they have been able to hold
> off the onslaught of human encroachment for so long. However, to
> balance the game I have greatly limited the number of elven mages.
> This was quite easy since none of my player characters are demi-human
> and they have a strong desire to leave those "crazy elves" alone.
Elven mages can use true magic. Only blooded elven mages can use
realm magic. If you want to handle it diffrently in your game, thats
fine, but its non-canon. :)
Elven wizards /are/ rare, because magic is very demanding. Thus,
all wizards are rare. I would say that elves have more wizards
than humans, but still not *that* many more.
- --
(lore@tmgbbs.com) \|/// Zzzzzzzzzzzz
Brandon Lance Quina (- -)
ICQ Number: 6809944 ---ooO(_)Ooo---
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03-05-1998, 10:01 PM #4Jim CooperGuest
Elves and Realm Spells
Brandon Quina wrote:
><
and the gods. However, the /elves/ could use true magic.
>
> However, before Deismaar /noone/ but the gods could use realm
> magic. Not even the elves. Elves weilded magic that was higher
> than 2nd level in all the spheres, and could probally use battle
> magic as well-- thats how they held their own.
>
> But even elves couldnt cast realm spells. To cast realm spells
> one must have a touch of the divine-- a bloodline.><
Wrong. The land itself is quite capable of giving anyone the ability to
cast realm spells; the use of the word divine is a misnomer in this
sense. Those ancient ley lines allowed ANYONE to use them, and thus
gave ancient spellcasters the ability to cast realm magic. In effect,
the land is the source of power and regency, the spellcaster merely a
vessel by which the land allows itself to be felt and shaped.
><
> Its all explained in the rulebook
>
> > This occurred long before the battle of Deismar and the time of
> > "blooded" characters. The elves were able to perform true magic
> > because of their natural connections to the land or the natural
> > ability to gather the power that wizard-regents acquire from their
> > magical sources.
><
Exactly, this *is* all presented in the rulebook, and thus invalidates
what you say below ->
><
> The 'sources' are needed for realm magic. Elves knew about forces,
> knew about mebhaighl, knew about leylines, but they /didnt/ know
> what they were for or how to use them. They couldnt use realm spells.
><
Wrong again. Think about this: if an elf is able to tap into and 'feel'
the mebhaighl around them, why cannot they not learn to effect its
course? Mebhaighl, and its flow, is an entirely natural process; in
fact, I would argue, just having the ability to tap into this stuff
would allow you to affect its course in some way. Just the same as if
we were able to place a log in a river we would be able to alter its
course in a desired direction.
Secondly, elves don't need the investiture spell. It infered as much in
the BoP. Period. The land naturally responds to their presense; it
always has. Thus, there have been elf (wizard) regents around for a
very long time, and elves therefore have been able to cast realm spells
for as long. The natural inclination for elves is to follow the path of
mebhaighl. Mebhaighl is nature, nature = elves, therefore elves are
_fundamentally_ able to cast realm spells.
><
> Instead, they could work the mebhaighl around them to create powerful
> magics that were beyond the ken of mortals. (Yes, mortals. Elves
> /arnt/ mortal. There immortal.) However, even they didnt have the
> divine power to bend sources and ley lines to their whim.
><
Your contradicting yourself here again, my friend. I think this stems
from your believe that 'divine' power is the only source of bloodlines.
Just out of curiousity, I always thought immortal was synonymous with
divine ?!? Remember that the land itself can bestow bloodlines on an
individual.
Which brings up my question again: When the land *does* bestow a
so-called bloodline, what derivation is it ?!?
Darren
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03-06-1998, 09:27 AM #5darkstarGuest
Elves and Realm Spells
Jim Cooper wrote:
> Wrong. The land itself is quite capable of giving anyone the ability to
> cast realm spells; the use of the word divine is a misnomer in this
> sense. Those ancient ley lines allowed ANYONE to use them, and thus
> gave ancient spellcasters the ability to cast realm magic. In effect,
> the land is the source of power and regency, the spellcaster merely a
> vessel by which the land allows itself to be felt and shaped.
Well here are my thought on this matter.
1. The ancient ley lines were set up by the Elves, perhaps by very
powerful ancient wizards who could cast realm spells. Perhaps they used
the ley lines for some sort of ancient ceremony. What ever it is not
important now, just one of those mysteries that are so common in
Cerilia. This should be somethat is up to each individual DM to decide
who created them and how they can be used.
2. I do not think that the common garden variety elf can cast realm
spells though as it does state in the rule book that only a Regent
Wizard has the power to cast such powerful magic, because other wizards
lack the supernatural conection with the land. This means that anyone
who has a source holding (or the correct level) can cast realm magic.
3. As for wizards and true magic, I tend to agree that only some Elves
would take up the magical arts. True there would be more Elven mages
than human per head, but that does not mean that every Elf is a mage. I
am not sure if an Elven mage would need to be blooded to gain source
holding and cast realm spell, but seeing that all the ones in Anuire and
the other lands of Cerilia are I am willing to concede that point.
4. I think that apart from Elves and Blooded human any creature that has
the right connection with the land can cast true magic. This means of
course dragons and other magical creatures. Their magical nature would
allow them the link necessary to cast true magic. Dragon seem especially
good at this.
In my latest Adurian nation there is also another race that can use
sources and cast true magic, although not realm magic yet (thank
goodness). But they are an extreamly powerful species who know much
about magic and the like. Fortunaty their are only two of them on the
planet so they are not likely to blow anything Aduria or anything like
that (or not yet anyway). Anyway if you don't want to include them you
can just forget about that nation, although it always was my favorite.
> Wrong again. Think about this: if an elf is able to tap into and 'feel'
> Your contradicting yourself here again, my friend. I think this stems
> from your believe that 'divine' power is the only source of bloodlines.
> Which brings up my question again: When the land *does* bestow a
> so-called bloodline, what derivation is it ?!?
You really need to reign in your belligerent attitude. I have noticed
that no-one else seems to be answering your posts and perhaps if you
toned down some of your responses and were a little nicer people might.
There is no need to say someone is wrong just because they disagree with
you. State your position in a nice calm manner instead and perhaps then
you will be listened too.
- --
Ian Hoskins
e-Mail: hoss@box.net.au
Homepage: http://darkstar.cyberserv.com
ICQ: 2938300
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03-06-1998, 01:23 PM #6rad smithGuest
Elves and Realm Spells
On Thu, 5 Mar 1998, Jim Cooper wrote:
> Which brings up my question again: When the land *does* bestow a
> so-called bloodline, what derivation is it ?!?
hmmm. i would say you've started a new bloodline.
be nice to your gm and have fun, essentially.
- --
rad
"these people are going to have to realise that sometimes
bad things happen for no reason, and without it begin anybody's
fault. it's a tough life; stop complaining and deal with it."
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03-06-1998, 02:37 PM #7Brandon QuinaGuest
Elves and Realm Spells
> Well here are my thought on this matter.
Ive already stated my opinions, but lets have a look at what
you've said
> 1. The ancient ley lines were set up by the Elves, perhaps by very
> powerful ancient wizards who could cast realm spells. Perhaps they
> used the ley lines for some sort of ancient ceremony. What ever it is
> not important now, just one of those mysteries that are so common in
> Cerilia. This should be somethat is up to each individual DM to decide
> who created them and how they can be used.
Thats the way I handle pretty much everything. Every
DM is going to handle things abit diffrently.
I like to keep things very mythical and amazing. The Regents
wield the power of gods. Having the land grant bloodlines and
priestly investiture simply being ceremonys would detract from
that, in my opinion.
Hmmm. You know what. I just had a neat little idea. The regents
wield the power of the gods, correct? Investiture is a priestly
realm spell-- and thus, formerly a power of the gods.
Wouldnt that mean that gods were formerly able to grant the
'divine right to rule' to their mortal kings. In effect, the
person who was invested was the person who the god choose to
rule. Regency is also formerly a power of the gods, thus
the gods would beable to 'bless' the efforts of their favored
mortal 'vassals' on earth and allow their rulership to fail or
what-have-you as they wished.
It even says in the book that one of the reasons that the
humans were able to defeat the elves was because they were
'favored of the gods'. Ie. the humans were 'appointed' the
new rulers of the land, in a way, and were helped in these
endevours by the gods.
> 2. I do not think that the common garden variety elf can cast realm
> spells though as it does state in the rule book that only a Regent
> Wizard has the power to cast such powerful magic, because other
> wizards lack the supernatural conection with the land. This means
> that anyone who has a source holding (or the correct level) can cast
> realm magic.
I would let elves gain source holdings. They can cast true magic
afterall. I wouldnt let them 'gain' a bloodline, in this manner
though. Thus, they would only beable to cast a realm spell that
didnt cost any regency to use (afterall, no matter how many sources
you have if you cant gain any of the regency that they give you,
theny ou cant cast many/any realm spells)
> 3. As for wizards and true magic, I tend to agree that only some Elves
> would take up the magical arts. True there would be more Elven mages
> than human per head, but that does not mean that every Elf is a mage.
> I am not sure if an Elven mage would need to be blooded to gain source
> holding and cast realm spell, but seeing that all the ones in Anuire
> and the other lands of Cerilia are I am willing to concede that point.
See what I said above
> 4. I think that apart from Elves and Blooded human any creature that
> has the right connection with the land can cast true magic. This means
> of course dragons and other magical creatures. Their magical nature
> would allow them the link necessary to cast true magic. Dragon seem
> especially good at this.
The pure fact that elves can cast true magic definatly implys that
dragons and other 'magical' creatures can do so as well.
- --
(lore@tmgbbs.com) \|/// Zzzzzzzzzzzz
Brandon Lance Quina (- -)
ICQ Number: 6809944 ---ooO(_)Ooo---
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03-06-1998, 02:59 PM #8Brandon QuinaGuest
Elves and Realm Spells
> Wrong. The land itself is quite capable of giving anyone the ability
> to cast realm spells; the use of the word divine is a misnomer in this
> sense. Those ancient ley lines allowed ANYONE to use them, and thus
> gave ancient spellcasters the ability to cast realm magic. In effect,
> the land is the source of power and regency, the spellcaster merely a
> vessel by which the land allows itself to be felt and shaped.
Last I checked, I was a dungeon master. Thus, I was correct.
Also, I sincerly hope they havnt put a stupid 'the land can make
commoners blooded' clause in one of the books. Thats soo sell-out,
and basically goes against the entire setting.
Birthright is a game where the characters have wrested power from
the gods, and saying that anybody can attain such power is just....
wrong. I have /rumours/ in my campaign about stuff like that
happening, but id never actually confirm it as being true.
> > > This occurred long before the battle of Deismar and the time of
> > > "blooded" characters. The elves were able to perform true magic
> > > because of their natural connections to the land or the natural
> > > ability to gather the power that wizard-regents acquire from their
> > > magical sources.
> Exactly, this *is* all presented in the rulebook, and thus invalidates
> what you say below ->
True magic is /not/ realm magic. Where would a non-blooded elf
gain the regency needed to cast the spells??
Anyways. Since you seem to value 'book proof' so much, here it is.
Page 5 of the Book of Magecraft.
"Although all Sidhelien have within themselves the potential to
wield true magic, only a few experience a "calling" to become
wizards. Still fewer possess the loodlines (obviously a typo,
supposed to mean bloodlines) that allow them to cast realm magic.
So while magic is familiar to the Sidhelien, it is not commonplace."
that /clearly/ says that elves /cant/ cast realm spells without
a bloodline.
You are right, though, that it /does/ say that the elves could
use the ancient ley lines. It does /not/ say that they created
them, however. However, that still dosnt give the unblooded elf
the regency he would need. It even says that not even elves
can 'affect' (destroy, sunder, deactivate, extend, etc) the ones--
thus even more strongly implying that they didnt create them.
> Wrong again. Think about this: if an elf is able to tap into and
> 'feel' the mebhaighl around them, why cannot they not learn to effect
> its course? Mebhaighl, and its flow, is an entirely natural process;
> in fact, I would argue, just having the ability to tap into this stuff
> would allow you to affect its course in some way. Just the same as if
> we were able to place a log in a river we would be able to alter its
> course in a desired direction.
Unblooded Human magicians can control mebhaighl and use it to cast
spells, why arnt you suggesting that they can cast realm spells?? The
same applys here.
> Secondly, elves don't need the investiture spell. It infered as much
> in the BoP. Period. The land naturally responds to their presense;
> it always has. Thus, there have been elf (wizard) regents around for
> a very long time, and elves therefore have been able to cast realm
> spells for as long. The natural inclination for elves is to follow
> the path of mebhaighl. Mebhaighl is nature, nature = elves, therefore
> elves are _fundamentally_ able to cast realm spells.
The land responds to the presence of 'ELVES' not of one elf. Hence
the reason an elven forest becomes an 'elven forest'. The presence
of so many elves in it makes it 'elven'.
There havnt been elven regents along for a very long time, however.
The way I had pictured the elves was that 'kings' and 'queens' for
them were a new thing. Before the coming of the humans I pictured
them as more of a republic-type of government.
> Your contradicting yourself here again, my friend. I think this
> stems from your believe that 'divine' power is the only source of
> bloodlines. Just out of curiousity, I always thought immortal was
> synonymous with divine ?!? Remember that the land itself can bestow
> bloodlines on an individual.
One simple question. Are elves gods in your campaign world? Cause
immortal or not, there not in mine.
Divine power /is/ the only source of bloodlines. That is what
a bloodline is, the divine power of the long dead gods.
- --
(lore@tmgbbs.com) \|/// Zzzzzzzzzzzz
Brandon Lance Quina (- -)
ICQ Number: 6809944 ---ooO(_)Ooo---
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03-06-1998, 05:24 PM #9Mark A VandermeulenGuest
Elves and Realm Spells
On Thu, 5 Mar 1998, Jim Cooper wrote:
> Wrong. The land itself is quite capable of giving anyone the ability to
> cast realm spells; the use of the word divine is a misnomer in this
> sense. Those ancient ley lines allowed ANYONE to use them, and thus
> gave ancient spellcasters the ability to cast realm magic. In effect,
> the land is the source of power and regency, the spellcaster merely a
> vessel by which the land allows itself to be felt and shaped.
This is an interesting idea, although a bit off-canon as _I_ understand
it. It might be that the elven word for "wizard" (which humans adopted)
originally meant "Walker Alone," or something like that, and refered to
the fact that some elves were able to spend a large amount of time
communing with the land rather than with elves society, and in return for
this simpatico they gained the understanding of the natural ley lines, and
the capability to channel such large amounts of meghveil needed to cast
the most powerful of spells. I might be tempted to call this not "gaining
a bloodline" but rather "becoming Dragon-like." Perhaps that's what the
original meaning of wizard was: "Dragon-kin" or "One-who-became-
Dragonlike."
> Wrong again. Think about this: if an elf is able to tap into and 'feel'
> the mebhaighl around them, why cannot they not learn to effect its
> course? Mebhaighl, and its flow, is an entirely natural process; in
> fact, I would argue, just having the ability to tap into this stuff
> would allow you to affect its course in some way. Just the same as if
> we were able to place a log in a river we would be able to alter its
> course in a desired direction.
I can also sense the wind, but I have no control over where it blows.
Perhaps until you have a bloodline, you have no means to "control" the
larger-scale flow of meghveil needed for the very powerful spells. Now,
perhaps with some process like the "Dragonification" that I talked about
above some elves might be able to extend their abilities in this way, but
I don't think that I would call it a bloodline.
> Secondly, elves don't need the investiture spell. It infered as much in
> the BoP. Period. The land naturally responds to their presense; it
> always has. Thus, there have been elf (wizard) regents around for a
> very long time, and elves therefore have been able to cast realm spells
> for as long. The natural inclination for elves is to follow the path of
> mebhaighl. Mebhaighl is nature, nature = elves, therefore elves are
> _fundamentally_ able to cast realm spells.
You make a very good case. If the elves don't need realm spells for
investiture, then why couldn't they have been invested before Deismaar?
And if they could be invested, why didn't they have holdings? Including
source holdings? Particularly if there are, as the book says, natural
sources and ley lines. I have two responces: on the one hand, it might be
that the land is just fundamentally different post-deismaar than it was
before; perhaps it swallowed enough of the godpower that it operates
differently, more "directedly", now. This is cast into doubt (but not
disproved) by the fact that none of the books mention any difference in
the land pre- and post-desimaar, esp. the Tuarhieval sourcebook, which
would be most likely to point such things out. On the other hand, perhaps
elves WERE capable of doing all those things, but never did. For a very
good reason: they never had to, and it was _beyond their paradigm_. They
never CONCEIVED of such things as guild holdings, law holdings and source
holdings. Those things are all human inventions. The elves had kings who
led them, and perhaps they had possession of the equivalent of province
holdings. But elves (at least in Cerillia) are not just pointy-eared
humans; they don't do the same things as humans do, and their society is
fundamentally different from human society. So perhaps elven kings has
something like bloodlines that were granted by the land, just as some
elven wizards may have had something like them as described above.
However, I would think these things are fundamentally different than
bloodlines: probably less efficient, as someone said.
> Which brings up my question again: When the land *does* bestow a
> so-called bloodline, what derivation is it ?!?
I guess you'll just have to make it up. :)
Mark VanderMeulen
vander+@pitt.edu
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03-06-1998, 06:33 PM #10
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Elves and Realm Spells
In a message dated 98-03-06 09:53:06 EST, you write:
3. As for wizards and true magic, I tend to agree that only some Elves
> would take up the magical arts. True there would be more Elven mages
> than human per head, but that does not mean that every Elf is a mage.
> I am not sure if an Elven mage would need to be blooded to gain source
> holding and cast realm spell, but seeing that all the ones in Anuire
> and the other lands of Cerilia are I am willing to concede that point. >>
Quoting from the Book of Magecraft:
"Although all Sidhelien have within themselves the potential to wield true
magic, only a few experience a 'calling' to become wizards. Still fewer
possess the (b)loodlines that allow them to cast realm magic. So while magic
is familiar to the Sidhelien, it is not commonplace." (p. 5)
Carrie Bebris
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