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  1. #1

    Weapon Stats in Rulebook

    > Something to remember is that a renaissance rapier is not a foil. It has a
    > 11/2 to 2 inch blade. It's a real sword, albeit an agile one.

    Gives a whole new meaning to 'shortsword'.

    "The last we saw of your father before they shut the city's gates on
    us he was charging alone against the entire Turkish army armed with
    nothing but a fruit knife."

    ;-)

    John.

    "Once I was a lamb, playing in a green field. Then
    the wolves came. Now I am an eagle and I fly in a
    different universe."
    "And now you kill the lambs," whispered Dardalion.
    "No, priest. No one pays for lambs."
    - David Gemmel, Waylander

  2. #2
    Mark A Vandermeulen
    Guest

    Weapon Stats in Rulebook

    Hello All,

    I was reading through the Rulebook today while making up a Brecht NPC, and
    I noticed something. In reference to Table 9, p. 18, does it strike anyone
    else as odd that the rapier causes more damage (1d6+1) than the
    cutlass(1d6)? Now, I'm no martial artist or military historian, but I
    always thought that the rapier was designed to take advantage of the
    user's speed and agility while the cutlass was more designed to take
    advantage of strength. Part of the reason the designers might have done
    this was to account for the rapier's ability to strike unarmored areas and
    holes in armor or through widely-spaced ring/chain mail. After thinking
    about it a bit, it struck me that a sollution could be attained for this
    discrapancy very easily: all that needs to be added is a rule that says
    that a fighter cannot add strength bonuses to damage when using a rapier.
    I'm considering using this rule, and would appreciate some feedback from
    others on this list as to whether this seems like a good idea.


    Mark VanderMeulen
    vander+@pitt.edu

  3. #3
    prtr02@scorpion.nspco.co
    Guest

    Weapon Stats in Rulebook

    > I was reading through the Rulebook today while making up a Brecht NPC, and
    > I noticed something. In reference to Table 9, p. 18, does it strike anyone
    > else as odd that the rapier causes more damage (1d6+1) than the
    > cutlass(1d6)? Now, I'm no martial artist or military historian, but I
    > always thought that the rapier was designed to take advantage of the
    > user's speed and agility while the cutlass was more designed to take
    > advantage of strength. Part of the reason the designers might have done
    > this was to account for the rapier's ability to strike unarmored areas and
    > holes in armor or through widely-spaced ring/chain mail. After thinking
    > about it a bit, it struck me that a sollution could be attained for this
    > discrapancy very easily: all that needs to be added is a rule that says
    > that a fighter cannot add strength bonuses to damage when using a rapier.
    > I'm considering using this rule, and would appreciate some feedback from
    > others on this list as to whether this seems like a good idea.

    Something to remember is that a renaissance rapier is not a foil. It has a
    11/2 to 2 inch blade. It's a real sword, albeit an agile one.

    The damage printed in the rulebook is wrong. Compare it to a sabre and what's
    said about that weapon. To paraphrase- a sabre is heavier and does more damage
    than a scimitar. Yah. Sure. Not by the printed rules.

    scimitar:d8/d8
    sabre:d6+1/d8+1 (same a rapier printed in the BR rulebook)

    Throw in the (correct) observation about the cutlass, and one would think we've
    reasoned the conclusion that the damage is wrong.

    But wait. If our own rules interpretation is somehow not enough, check out
    PO: combat and tactics. This tome, written by one of the main BR authors lists
    the rapier as d6/d8 and sabre as d6+1/d8+1. Conclusion? The damage listed in
    the rulebook table for rapiers is a typo.

    Case closed?

    Rules Lawyer Randax

    PS IMO many weapons in D&D are underrated in regards to their relative damage
    potential and some (ie the longsword) are overated. Is it worth it to redo
    every weapon and the combat system? Not on your own. I've tried it. It
    doesn't make that great an impact on the game and it sure is a headache for
    the DM to interpret every peice of source material into the "new" system.

  4. #4
    Daniel McSorley
    Guest

    Weapon Stats in Rulebook

    >PS IMO many weapons in D&D are underrated in regards to their relative
    damage
    >potential and some (ie the longsword) are overated. Is it worth it to redo
    >every weapon and the combat system? Not on your own. I've tried it. It
    >doesn't make that great an impact on the game and it sure is a headache for
    >the DM to interpret every peice of source material into the "new" system.


    Actually, I saw something in a recent Dragon from the editors, basically
    inviting letters on just this topic. It was hypothetical, I think, but ran
    something like, if there were a third edition AD&D, would you want some
    weapons to remain clearly superior (longsword...), or would you want them to
    be more balanced.
    Daniel McSorley
    mcsorley.1@osu.edu
    ICQ:5299865

  5. #5
    Tim Nutting
    Guest

    Weapon Stats in Rulebook

    > PS IMO many weapons in D&D are underrated in regards to their relative
    damage
    > potential and some (ie the longsword) are overated. Is it worth it to
    redo
    > every weapon and the combat system? Not on your own. I've tried it. It

    > doesn't make that great an impact on the game and it sure is a headache
    for
    > the DM to interpret every peice of source material into the "new" system.

    The longsword may be wildly unbalanced, I am not altogether convinced as I
    have never been able to find any renaisance or medieval blades that truly
    fall into the category. Mostly all I can find are bastard swords and
    broadswords. I don't know how the conclusions of damage to larger than
    human objects were reached, so I remain stumped on the 1d12 rating of the
    long sword.

    However, the key here, IMO, is that the damage codes are based around
    0-level spuds and 1-HD monsters. A solid hit from a soldier using a
    braodsword has the serious potential to kill an orc, and a thief attacking
    in the night from behind with a dagger is a serious threat to just such
    targets. Naturally, as characters advance the weapon damages seem
    ludicrously small, and yes that is perhaps a weakness of the system,
    depending on what you're looking for. I have found dozens of systems that
    have more "realistic" combat systems (Rolemaster boggles the mind...) but
    none of them engender the same sense of fantasy heroes and terrible
    monsters that D&D has, and I think thats what the game was designed to do.

    If we really want to worry about propper damages, I strongly suggest
    I.C.E.'s "Arms Law & Claw Law," a part of the Rolemaster RPG. It used to
    be sold separately, but I'm not sure anymore. Each weapon type has its own
    20 column chart with over 150 entries of possible damage codes, referencing
    5 critical hit tables per weapon type (slash, puncture, bludgeon, claw,
    etc., etc., ad nauseum.) As unwieldy as that sounds (it is!) it can be
    made simpler by giving each player a photocopy of his weapon pages, though
    this is of questionable legality. I believe, however, that copyright laws
    allow for personal use within reason - but then, what do gamers care!?
    Legal or not, the Xerox is our best friend! :)

    If the hypothetical game group is REALLY detail oriented, they just might
    want to try the entire Rolemaster RPG. It is not entirely compatible, but
    conversion is certainly possible and allowed for in the main books. I have
    no idea how you would convert Birthright over, but it would be a MAJOR
    undertaking. However, the game awards XP for just about anything
    (including walking from A to B) and you get more for doing something for
    the first time, but less as time goes on, until you receive none for the
    routine (you can learn nothing new from it). The spell system is
    fantastically detailed and allows healing on a range perhaps only matched
    by Harn.

    Good Gaming
    Tim Nutting

  6. #6
    Samuel Weiss
    Guest

    Weapon Stats in Rulebook

    Tim Nutting discussed Rolemaster and Birthright.
    Actually, I don't think converting it over would be that hard. You would
    have to write up new racial templates, but that isn't that har since they
    published rules for it. Blood abilities become the various advantages
    possible in the system.
    The main difficulties are proper spheres for certain specialty priests and
    paladins. But you can handle that by just shifting things around and
    ignoring the set materials. Realm spells, which are possible with all the
    stuff on nodes and arcane magic. And the combat system. The reason I don't
    like the combat system is that it is way too critical hit reliant. Maybe
    AD&D weapons do too little damage at high level, but I really don't want my
    10th level fighter getting offed by an orc with that incredibly lucky roll
    as can happen quite easily in Rolemaster. That has always been the real
    problem with critical hit systems in AD&D. Everyone likle the idea of
    killing a dragon with one shot, no one likes the idea of their character
    going down the same way.
    Which is why I won't convert over.

    Samwise

  7. #7
    prtr02@scorpion.nspco.co
    Guest

    Weapon Stats in Rulebook

    > > Something to remember is that a renaissance rapier is not a foil. It has a
    > > 11/2 to 2 inch blade. It's a real sword, albeit an agile one.
    >
    > Gives a whole new meaning to 'shortsword'.
    >
    > "The last we saw of your father before they shut the city's gates on
    > us he was charging alone against the entire Turkish army armed with
    > nothing but a fruit knife."
    >
    > ;-)

    Hehehehe, that made a bad day lots brighter. :)

    HeeYa! *swish* Those Jannissaries don't stand a chance!

    Randax

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