Novels and Gameworld Evolution.

[James Ruhland]

> > dictate what happens in Cerilia, the way it ruined Athas, so long ago.
>
> I have never read any D&D books, and read no fiction in general. So, I
am
> unaware of how the books have influenced other campaigns, or how they
> might influence BR. If someone who has seen this process would explain
to
> me, how have novels "ruined" other campaigns, and how does the fiction
> effect the game supliments.
>
> I know its official policy in the Star Trek franchise that the novels are
> unofficial, and that any contradiction between movies & TV and any books
> are to beresolved in favor of the large or small screen.
>
TSR novels usually equal TSR gospel. I.E. if an event (like the distruction
of Zhentil Keep or the killing of Athas' Dragon) occurs in a Novel, it is
"official" that that event happened in the Gameworld and future products,
accessories, etc will reflect these changes. In the past, at the dawn of
TSR's publication of novels was Dragonlance. Events in that campaign world
tracked with (but did not exactly duplicate, so players could be surprised)
events in the novels. But players had the option to be the heros, to
perform heroic deeds, perhaps achieving the same result (the triumph of
good), but by different means. This practice was duplicated with Azure
Bonds (a module was published along with the book) and with the modules
Shadowdale, Tantras, and Waterdeep, which tracked the events followed in
the "Godswar"/"Avatar" trilogy of books. These modules marked, thus far,
the end of the practice of publishing modules that allowed PCs to be the
"heros" of the events covered in books.
And in that case it may have been a good thing; these last three modules
were so heavily scripted, and most of the "major" events were determined by
the actions of NPCs, it was a classic example of the worst kind of linear
dongeon; though they were well written, they were not very fun to play.
From that point on, events that occured in novels did not recieve treatment
in module form. Gameworlds just changed. Characters in Novels (I.E. the
ones set in Athas) could jump from being, say, a 9th level mage to suddenly
18th level in a way that would cause TSR employees to snear in derision if
they heard a gammer (you know, the people that buy and use this stuff)
describing a character that advanced in such a fashion in their own
campaigns. Major, gameworld altering events all take place off-stage (where
PCs are concerned). The Sorceror Kings and the almighty Dragon of Athas are
killed by NPCs in novels. Zhentil Keep is destroyed by NPCs in novels. Soon
I bet the Red Wizards of Thay will be destroyed by the Seven Sisters.
Point of all this isn't even so much that the destiny of gameworlds is
decided in ways that give players little influence; it's that it's usually
decided in ways that decrease, rather than increase, the threat that good
aligned PCs face. Take a different example: the Shadowrun universe's
destiny is controlled by FASA pretty tightly as well. But every year novels
and accessorys *increase* the number of villians and the level of the
threat PCs face. Cyric (an evil, powerful god) goes mad in the Forgotten
Realms, and Zhentil Keep, a focus of evil, is nuked. In Shadowrun
Dunkelzhan (a powerful, good dragon) is killed and everything goes to hell.
I.E. in one case there is more adventure oportunity and a heightened sense
that things are dangerous. In the other case the PCs can now travel unarmed
on a white charger carrying a sack of gold and know that if any mean people
attack them Elminster and his merry band of Archmages will come to their
rescue.
Now, a rejoinder to all this is "if you don't like what happens in the
novels, just ignore it". That's fine. I plan on doing that. But this is bad
for a gamming company (I.E. TSR) which hopes to sell accessories et al. I
plan on not buying many more FR accessories. Why? if I ignore what happens
in the novels, many of them are not very valuable to me. I may as well
spend the (vast) time and effort (which I buy accessories to avoid) in
designing my own campaign world. If I have to change every little detail in
the accessory, I'm 1) out 30 bucks and 2) still spending my time designing
my own world.
On the other hand, for the most part Shadowrun novels have enhanced my
gamming experience. I buy every (what few their are) SR accessory, and read
just about every novel. On the one hand, here's a company getting as much
of my $$ as possible. On the other hand, here's a company that used to sell
products (of one of their lines) to me, but is no longer getting my cash
(at least with respect to that product line).

> How does it work in BR?
>
So far BR novels have only contributed to the experience, they have not had
the flaws that the novels for other gameworlds have had. I wish there were
more BR novels because, so far, they've been an example of how a good novel
can enhance gameplay and your understanding of the gameworld, without
wreaking havoc.

[c558382@showme.missouri.]

Thanks for your complete and explanatory post on novles. I always have
the sense that, like a good movie, tension and threat should increase over
time. Its unfortunate this has not always been the case with melieu
development.

Would that I could find accessories I could use "off the shelf". Instead,
even with BR, which I like alot, I end up scanning the stuff and
re-writing it. It ends up being more a source of ideas than actual
materials.

If players just pass through a realm, I'll just use the materials. The
longer they stay, the more I re-work stuff.

Kenneth Gauck
c558382@showme.missouri.edu

[John Ewan]

At 23:29 2/14/98 -0600, you wrote:
>.....the modules
>Shadowdale, Tantras, and Waterdeep, which tracked the events followed in
>the "Godswar"/"Avatar" trilogy of books. These modules marked, thus far,
>the end of the practice of publishing modules that allowed PCs to be the
>"heros" of the events covered in books.
> And in that case it may have been a good thing; these last three modules
>were so heavily scripted, and most of the "major" events were determined by
>the actions of NPCs, it was a classic example of the worst kind of linear
>dongeon; though they were well written, they were not very fun to play.

So true, we bought the first one, my wife was DM and she was disgusted by
the way the scenario went. She felt the PCs were just 'cannon-fodder' for
the characters from the novel. She took the initial events and made her
own storyline. We never had that major change of gods in her campaign. We
ran our own stories from then on.


> Now, a rejoinder to all this is "if you don't like what happens in the
>novels, just ignore it". That's fine. I plan on doing that. But this is bad
>for a gamming company (I.E. TSR) which hopes to sell accessories et al. I
>plan on not buying many more FR accessories.

Which is exactly what we did; we no longer play in a FR campaign. We love
the BR setting; even hackneyed plots get a new twist if you add the
political shenanigans that abound in Cerilia! My wife was running a
scenario she wrote about a 'kidnapped princess who may have been involved
in her own kidnapping' at the time that the module came out from TSR.
It was a perfect idea for BR and our details differed but certainly fit
where we were in Cerilia.

In our Brecht campaign, DMed by a friend, my Brecht wizard from a merchant
family made a deal for dwarven arms from Baruk Azik and getting my toe in
the door for access to the sources there by offering help against orogs.
Lo and behold, the Baruk Azik supplement included the rumor of a wizard
working with them against the orogs. There are certain ideas that BR works
well with and allows the PCs more latitude in execution.


John Ewan, Sysop | Look for me online at MPG-Net
Multi-Player Games Network | as Gimli jwe@mpgn.com
http://www.mpgn.com |

[Samuel Weiss]

Being also on Greytalk I can tell you we have the same low opinion of Game
Novels over there. Set in the way past is fair, but don't run the world
through NPC's. I resaved Ivid in RTF, then chopped it up into chapters. It
is still a major pain to read, but it is fascinating. A few behind the
scenes fills from a person who talked with Carl Sargent shows he had major
plans for the whole setting. We all have high hopes for Roger Moore and his
new work on it, not to mention Anne Brown's setting update. A new thread we
are discussing concerns our dislike with the mainstreaming of GH Elves.
Frankly, I was quite suprised to see BR have such novel Elves, not to
mention Dwarves and Halflings. (I won't start a Gnome War here, though I do
love them myself.) Anyway, I hope they keep the novels and NPC's in the
backgoround in BR as well. Like others, I will go elsewhere if BR becomes
another FR.

Samwise

[nick yates]

>TSR novels usually equal TSR gospel. I.E. if an event (like the distruction
>of Zhentil Keep or the killing of Athas' Dragon) occurs in a Novel, it is
>"official" that that event happened in the Gameworld and future products,
>accessories, etc will reflect these changes. In the past, at the dawn of
>TSR's publication of novels was Dragonlance. Events in that campaign world
>tracked with (but did not exactly duplicate, so players could be surprised)
>events in the novels. But players had the option to be the heros, to
>perform heroic deeds, perhaps achieving the same result (the triumph of
>good), but by different means. This practice was duplicated with Azure
>Bonds (a module was published along with the book) and with the modules
>Shadowdale, Tantras, and Waterdeep, which tracked the events followed in
>the "Godswar"/"Avatar" trilogy of books. These modules marked, thus far,
>the end of the practice of publishing modules that allowed PCs to be the
>"heros" of the events covered in books.
> And in that case it may have been a good thing; these last three modules
>were so heavily scripted, and most of the "major" events were determined by
>the actions of NPCs, it was a classic example of the worst kind of linear
>dongeon; though they were well written, they were not very fun to play.
>From that point on, events that occured in novels did not recieve treatment
>in module form. Gameworlds just changed. Characters in Novels (I.E. the
>ones set in Athas) could jump from being, say, a 9th level mage to suddenly
>18th level in a way that would cause TSR employees to snear in derision if
>they heard a gammer (you know, the people that buy and use this stuff)
>describing a character that advanced in such a fashion in their own
>campaigns. Major, gameworld altering events all take place off-stage (where
>PCs are concerned). The Sorceror Kings and the almighty Dragon of Athas are
>killed by NPCs in novels. Zhentil Keep is destroyed by NPCs in novels. Soon
>I bet the Red Wizards of Thay will be destroyed by the Seven Sisters.
> Point of all this isn't even so much that the destiny of gameworlds is
>decided in ways that give players little influence; it's that it's usually
>decided in ways that decrease, rather than increase, the threat that good
>aligned PCs face. Take a different example: the Shadowrun universe's
>destiny is controlled by FASA pretty tightly as well. But every year novels
>and accessorys *increase* the number of villians and the level of the
>threat PCs face. Cyric (an evil, powerful god) goes mad in the Forgotten
>Realms, and Zhentil Keep, a focus of evil, is nuked. In Shadowrun
>Dunkelzhan (a powerful, good dragon) is killed and everything goes to hell.
>I.E. in one case there is more adventure oportunity and a heightened sense
>that things are dangerous. In the other case the PCs can now travel unarmed
>on a white charger carrying a sack of gold and know that if any mean people
>attack them Elminster and his merry band of Archmages will come to their
>rescue.
> Now, a rejoinder to all this is "if you don't like what happens in the
>novels, just ignore it". That's fine. I plan on doing that. But this is bad
>for a gamming company (I.E. TSR) which hopes to sell accessories et al. I
>plan on not buying many more FR accessories. Why? if I ignore what happens
>in the novels, many of them are not very valuable to me.

>> How does it work in BR?
>>
>So far BR novels have only contributed to the experience, they have not had
>the flaws that the novels for other gameworlds have had. I wish there were
>more BR novels because, so far, they've been an example of how a good novel
>can enhance gameplay and your understanding of the gameworld, without
>wreaking havoc.
>

Yep I have to agree with what you've said here, when we came to deciding
what campaign to play, we never considered FR as what can your PCs do that
Elminster and the rest of the ridiculous Munchkins like Drizzt (insanely
overpowered) Do'Urden can't do with one hand tied behind their back. We
play DL and BR, even DL is a bit limited but at least in the new campaign,
they've got rid of the Heroes of the Lance at long last.

The BR novels so far have all been pretty good in that they don't kill off
important NPCs that you want as the centrepiece of your campaign. All
right the Awnsheghs do get defeated but only in a way that makes them more
dangerous than ever. eg. The Spider can't invade Endier, so he has to
look in other directions, the Gorgon can't claim Michael Roele's bloodline,
so he'll be going after yours all that much more.

I say let the PCs save the world, conquer the Empire and defeat evil,
thats what they're there for. If somebody would kill Elminster and Drizzt
off the Realms would be a lot more interesting, and a lot more dangerous,
or is that the same thing? :-)

Nick

[Pieter A de Jong]

At 09:05 AM 2/15/98 -0600, James Ruhland wrote:

> Of course, Mystara kinda died shortly after that. The one world where I
>actually think TSR was on the right path was the Greyhawk world, which had
>the "Greyhawk Wars", crippling the good-aligned powers and vastly
>increasing the presence of evil (the threat level), but they cut that off
>just as things were getting interesting (I would've loved to see the
>gazeteer describing "Ivid the Undieing"; they put up an unedited zip file
>of the work in progress, it's virtually unreadable in it's present form,
>but boy does it hint at some cool stuff. . .)
Formatted (RTF, HTML, and Online) versions of Ivid the Undying are available
on the net at various greyhawk sites. In particular at
http://142.103.100.20/users/students/matthews/greyhawk/
( the codex of greyhawk).

>************************************************* **************************
>>'unsubscribe birthright' as the body of the message.
>

Pieter A de Jong
Graduate Mechanical Engineering Student
University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada

[c558382@showme.missouri.]

I agree to a great degree with the points made about not letting the
campaign crush player potential.

However, there is the opposite problem, where the rest of the world is a
wax museum until the players enter, and then suddenly comes to life. This
may be especially true for a demi-human campaign because they, most
likely, won't be re-establihsing the empire &c. In fact the overthane of
my campaign chafes when Brecht and Khinasi NPC's refer to him as an
Anuirian duke. For me, Baruk-Azhik has to intimate a histoy with the
Empire (B-A dwraves crafted Michael Roele's sword, for godness sake.) to
give too much weight to her more recent policy of isolation. Formerly
occupied peoples remember the cooperations, not the isolation.

Well, anyway, I feel its best to have the rest of the world moving along.
For one thing it creates a little pressure.

Kenneth Gauck
c558382@showme.missouri.edu

On Mon, 16 Feb 1998, nick yates wrote:
> > Point of all this isn't even so much that the destiny of gameworlds is
> >decided in ways that give players little influence; it's that it's usually
> >decided in ways that decrease, rather than increase, the threat that good
> >aligned PCs face. Take a different example: the Shadowrun universe's
> >destiny is controlled by FASA pretty tightly as well. But every year novels
> >and accessorys *increase* the number of villians and the level of the
> >threat PCs face.
>
> The BR novels so far have all been pretty good in that they don't kill off
> important NPCs that you want as the centrepiece of your campaign. All
> right the Awnsheghs do get defeated but only in a way that makes them more
> dangerous than ever. eg. The Spider can't invade Endier, so he has to
> look in other directions, the Gorgon can't claim Michael Roele's bloodline,
> so he'll be going after yours all that much more.
>
> I say let the PCs save the world, conquer the Empire and defeat evil,
> thats what they're there for. If somebody would kill Elminster and Drizzt
> off the Realms would be a lot more interesting, and a lot more dangerous,
> or is that the same thing? :-)

[Neil Barnes]

On Wed, 18 Feb 1998 c558382@showme.missouri.edu wrote:
> However, there is the opposite problem, where the rest of the world is a
> wax museum until the players enter, and then suddenly comes to life.

I think the important thing is to have events going on during the
campaign - which is really up to the GM, since the circulstances of each
campaign are going to be different.

Because BR is so political, there's no way an official timeline could
remain compatible with different GM's campiagns, thus leading to the
problems found in the Realms and Mystara.

> Well, anyway, I feel its best to have the rest of the world moving along.
> For one thing it creates a little pressure.

This may be where other people's campaigns come in. If my Khinasi PCs
ever go to Anuire, they'll probably run into the politics from the
Anuirean campaign I play in. This stuff can go on when they encounter
it.

neil

[E Gray]

- -----Original Message-----
From: Neil Barnes
To: birthright@MPGN.COM
Date: Tuesday, February 17, 1998 11:10 PM
Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Novels and Gameworld Evolution.



>Because BR is so political, there's no way an official timeline could
>remain compatible with different GM's campiagns, thus leading to the
>problems found in the Realms and Mystara.


Well, I just feel I have to make this one mention of a little known
place called Harn by Columbia Games, and guess what everything
that happens in the books is set on or before a certain date, no
exceptions, which gives GMs a lot more freedom to reshape the
world to set their designs..