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  1. #1
    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
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    So we all know Cerilian Dragons can cast true magic without bloodlines.

    Does their primal blood allow them to control sources, ley lines, and regency, or are they limited to magics of a smaller scale? Also, if they collected regency could they in fact strengthen their own bloodlines?

    In other words, should dragons be treated like scions with True bloodlines (or at least True/Great, depending on age?).

    Curious if others have some ideas on this subject, as it could be a fascinating little piece of mostly-lost Cerilian lore.

    Osprey

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    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    IMO no they shouldn't be. IMO they are more like elves, they can cast true magic but not realm magic unless they have a bloodline.

    They aren't divine in nature, which is the real tie for manifesting realm magic. It was the blood of the gods (e.g., divine essence) that allows focusing of the mebhaighl required for realm magic without being destroyed.
    Duane Eggert

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    Senior Member teloft's Avatar
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    In other words, should dragons be treated like scions with True bloodlines (or at least True/Great, depending on age?).
    I like this idee

    So killing a dragon eould give you some blood boost. even you could get a new bloodline !! a dragon blood.

    we could be moving towards a posible variant setings West of the andurian Named "DARK SUN"

  4. #4
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    Osprey writes:



    > So we all know Cerilian Dragons can cast true magic without bloodlines.Does their primal blood allow them to control sources, ley lines, and regency, or are they limited to magics of a smaller scale? Also, if they collected regency could they in fact strengthen their own bloodlines?In other words, should dragons be treated like scions with True bloodlines (or at least True/Great, depending on age?). Curious if others have some ideas on this subject, as it could be a fascinating little piece of mostly-lost Cerilian lore.



    I don`t have any BR material in front of me at the moment, but IIRC the

    existence of dragon bones in a province is one of the things that can raise

    the potential source level of that province. Given that, it seems like

    dragons might have some innate source-like power if just their calcifying

    corpses represents what is, in effect, 1-3 potential source levels. I

    suggest that a living, (fire-)breathing dragon might represent a more

    powerful magical "source" all by its lonesome.



    However, I`d suggest that casting realm spells and participation in the BR

    domain level of play might be a step down for a Cerilian dragon. They may

    be operating at a level above that of the bloodline/domain level. That

    might explain why dragon(s) present on the battlefield were "immune" to the

    effects of Deismaar. If they already have a dragon-ish equivalent that is

    more powerful than bloodline, the comparatively paltry powers absorbed by

    mortals (and elves) at that battle might not stack (in 3e terms) with their

    draconic power.



    I like to postulate the existence of an "empire level" of play that is to

    the domain level what the domain level is to the adventure level. That

    "empire level" could also be the "dragon level" if you will. Cerilian

    dragons might be operating at that level, magically speaking, and wielding

    magics that are so vast that they might actually go unnoticed or mistaken

    for something else when viewed at the domain or adventure levels. Draconic

    "source" magic might be responsible for hurricanes, earthquakes, plagues,

    the seasons, or similar continent or even planet spanning effect. The

    domain turns and action rounds of that level of play might take decades or

    years. Dragons could be competing with the gods themselves for the control

    of "empire level" sources (or the gods might be a level or two above

    dragons) or with similar, titan-like beings in a conflict that is so broad

    most of humanity doesn`t even recognize it because of its vast scale.



    At least, that`s the kind of thing I`d lean towards.



    Gary

  5. #5
    Heh, blooded dragons... Well even if theyre not considered blooded to begin with, how many adventures have they probably eaten over the past 1500+ years since deismaar that were blooded? Probably a few at least. So, its fairly likely that they would have bloodlines anyway.

    Now, considering the posssiblity of them being blooded... It would be interesting if dragons have their own type of divine blood from a primal source, ie not from any of the gods who died at diesmaar, that gives them their powers, as they age. Unless, you mean they have this divine blood that gives them other powers in addition to what they already have. Then I'm never goin dragon hunting...

    However, if dragons have this primal divine blood why wouldnt the elves? Heh, would be a good excuse to have elves take a level in elf to get their benefits (though most likely they start off with a few benefits like immortality, ect), just like scions need to take a level in scion to get access to their powers.

    In any case it would at least be an interesting variant that would help explain why these two races can cast arcane magic.
    "Who was the first that forged the deadly blade? Of rugged steel his savage soul was made." --Tibullus

    "Qui desiderat pacem praeparet bellum." --Vegetius

    "Men grow tired of sleep, love, singing and dancing sooner than war." --Homer

  6. #6
    I like to postulate the existence of an "empire level" of play that is to
    the domain level what the domain level is to the adventure level. That
    "empire level" could also be the "dragon level" if you will. Cerilian
    dragons might be operating at that level, magically speaking, and wielding
    magics that are so vast that they might actually go unnoticed or mistaken
    for something else when viewed at the domain or adventure levels. Draconic
    "source" magic might be responsible for hurricanes, earthquakes, plagues,
    the seasons, or similar continent or even planet spanning effect. The
    domain turns and action rounds of that level of play might take decades or
    years. Dragons could be competing with the gods themselves for the control
    of "empire level" sources (or the gods might be a level or two above
    dragons) or with similar, titan-like beings in a conflict that is so broad
    most of humanity doesn`t even recognize it because of its vast scale.
    That's an awesome way to describe how they would act, subtly working cercumstances, like playing igo, until you have your opponent surrounded and without a secure base and thus forcing them to surrender... Gods shouldnt really be on the same level as dragons, as most Gods are probably more inteligent than the dragons, as the average dragon inteligence is 26 while most gods would probably be in the 30s-40s. Additionally gods really depend upon the belief of their followers, while dragons do not need followers.

    Hmm, well they may compete on some levels then, however, I imagine that gods would have a bigger view than just empire, more like continental to world view of things at least, along with they interests in the Shadow world and maybe some in the elemental planes, ect. Because, they very well could have other followers on other continents or planes, however, those followers may have slightly different names for them, and then there maybe other planets following this example, heh, who knows, maybe some of them count by galexy, universe or planes (ie shadow world, Prime material plane, Elemental planes, ect).

    It really, leads you to contemplate just how far one would be able to expand ones influence over one's reality, as for gods their reality is exsisting on multiple worlds in multiple planes, while for most dragons their reality is about 1-4 regions (or 1 continent at best) and 1 maybe 2 planes (some may have ties to the shadow world), and for the average human their reality is the local area they live and work inm just to give it a little perspective.
    "Who was the first that forged the deadly blade? Of rugged steel his savage soul was made." --Tibullus

    "Qui desiderat pacem praeparet bellum." --Vegetius

    "Men grow tired of sleep, love, singing and dancing sooner than war." --Homer

  7. #7
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Originally posted by geeman@May 17 2004, 02:20 PM

    I don`t have any BR material in front of me at the moment, but IIRC the

    existence of dragon bones in a province is one of the things that can raise

    the potential source level of that province. Given that, it seems like

    dragons might have some innate source-like power if just their calcifying

    corpses represents what is, in effect, 1-3 potential source levels.
    IIRC they were treated as artifacts and were essentially "portable sources", they did not add to the source level of the province but were separate sources that did not count towards the 'normal' level of sources that a province (i.e., terrain) has.
    Duane Eggert

  8. #8
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Originally posted by geeman@May 17 2004, 02:20 PM
    That

    might explain why dragon(s) present on the battlefield were "immune" to the

    effects of Deismaar.
    Maybe I'm missing something - but I don't recall mention of dragons at Deismaar.

    There are only a handful of dragons total (I can't recall the exact number but it is less than 12). They don't like to be bothered by lesser beings. So whose side would they have fought on? That would have been the side that won, pretty much automatically.

    Even the Gorgon's 'pet' wasn't defeated until after he (the Gorgon) ascended to awnsheghlien status.
    Duane Eggert

  9. #9
    Site Moderator Magian's Avatar
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    Originally posted by irdeggman+May 17 2004, 02:26 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (irdeggman @ May 17 2004, 02:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-geeman@May 17 2004, 02:20 PM
    That

    might explain why dragon(s) present on the battlefield were "immune" to the

    effects of Deismaar.
    Maybe I&#39;m missing something - but I don&#39;t recall mention of dragons at Deismaar.

    There are only a handful of dragons total (I can&#39;t recall the exact number but it is less than 12). They don&#39;t like to be bothered by lesser beings. So whose side would they have fought on? That would have been the side that won, pretty much automatically.

    Even the Gorgon&#39;s &#39;pet&#39; wasn&#39;t defeated until after he (the Gorgon) ascended to awnsheghlien status. [/b][/quote]
    If I recall correctly there is mention that dragons did fight at Deismaar. It may be in the Dragon magazines that have articles of the dragons of Cerilia. Also the limited number of dragons refers only to dragons living in Cerilia not the rest of the world.

    Another thing to note. In Vosgaard there is a dragon that does own sources. It is between the Raven&#39;s realm and Zoloskaya. Actually the Dragon Vore Lekiniskiy is in both realms.
    One law, One court, One allied people, One coin, and one tax, is what I shall bring to Cerilia.

  10. #10
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    irdeggman writes:



    > Maybe I`m missing something - but I don`t recall mention of

    > dragons at Deismaar.



    > There are only a handful of dragons total (I can`t recall

    > the exact number but it is less than 12). They don`t like to be

    > bothered by lesser beings. So whose side would they have fought on?

    > That would have been the side that won, pretty much automatically.



    I still don`t have my BR materials with me, but IIRC there were Dragon mag

    articles that mention dragons being present at Deismaar. I think it was one

    from Vosgaard fighting on Azrai`s side and another from Anuire who fought

    against Azrai.



    Dragons (particularly BR dragons) should be pretty impossibly powerful, but

    given that that battle involved the gods themselves, a dragon or two might

    have actually not been the most powerful things on the field.



    There is a list of the dragons known to exist (or that have been mentioned

    in the BR materials) compiled by Daniel McSorley and in the archives at:



    http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa...ght-l&P=R1691&

    m=9974



    Gary

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