Wow, that is alot of soldiers

[Trizt]

Just for fun I did estimate the human/demihuman population in Anuire and got
it to 2.534.000. Thats quite little for a place of the size of France, but
anyhow I wanted to see how many units soldiers there would be around Anuire if
the % of the population which served in an army would be somewhat the same as
in late 16th century. The number would be 91200 soldiers (no mercenary units
are included in this, those usually ranged between 500-7000 soldiers) and this
would be as many as 456 units (200 man in each). If we then include the
teamsters, bakers, washers and the rest of the people who was in the supply
and the families to the soldiers, that would be 273600 more persons. So each
year there would be upto 364800 "civilians" living in military camps all over
Anuire and an uncounted amount mercenaries with their own "supplyers", I would
guess that an half miljon people would be out in those camps. In the Ruins of
Empire you will find only 157 units, either it's quite peaceful times in
Anuire or the population is only 872.000 which would be even less than the
population in 16th century Denmark.

This numbers don't include any naval forces at all, only army units (3.6% of
the population), those should be added to the army to get a total population
who are doing military service or supporting them and family following the
army (approx 3 per soldier).


//Trizt of Ward^RITE

-

[E Gray]

- -----Original Message-----
From: Trizt
To: E Gray
Date: Monday, February 02, 1998 8:02 AM
Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Wow, that is alot of soldiers


>On 02-Feb-98, E Gray (grayhome@sprintmail.com) wrote about Re:
[BIRTHRIGHT] -
>Wow, that is alot of soldiers:
>
>->>Just for fun I did estimate the human/demihuman population in Anuire and
>->>got it to 2.534.000.
>
>->Based on what sources? I'd like to know where your numbers are from..
>It's based on the province levels/population number given in the rulebook.


And how accurate would those numbers be?

>->>anyhow I wanted to see how many units soldiers there would be around
Anuire
>->>if the % of the population which served in an army would be somewhat the
>->same as in late 16th century.
>
>->Population where? England, Spain, France, Germany, Walla-walla land?
>European contries which was to pore to have great mercenary armies, which
>mostly has been north europe.


Ok, so where'd you get the % of the population umbers then? As for 16th
Century
Europe, small professional armies yes, mercenary ones? Not really..



>->Why is this situation logical in an area wracked with warfair, when you'd
>->think that precicely *because* of that warfair the military would be in
an
>->advanced state?
>No, but as Anuire is deeply into renaisance, then it would be quite logical
to
>have renaisance sized armies.

There is no basic for that logic, because technological advancement does not
equal a parallel in societal/governmental structure....it really doesn't.

[James Ruhland]

>
>
> I can agree with you if it's a completly peacful time for the country,
but
> during war time you can always mobilize more than just 3.6% of your
population
> (7% of the male population).
>
IMO, as I vaguely alluded to, the begining of the game/BR set is a time of
relative peace, or, more accurately, exaustion. Once the various realms get
several solid trade routes set up (and make the owning guilders pay a hefty
tax on them), then army sizes increase. IMO, doesn't take long (5 years of
"game time" is plenty) and army sizes (as a total) begin to get into line
with your renaissance percentages (of course, this is an agrigate; because
Cerilia is heavily fragmented, any individual army is still relatively
small).
>
> No, but as Anuire is deeply into renaisance, then it would be quite
logical to
> have renaisance sized armies. But I could have said yes too, the more war
the
> more the tactics and weaponary developes, the war where we saw most of
the
> development was 2nd worldwar. Somehow war has been quite linked to
> development, without the two worldwars we wouldn't have aircrafts.
>
Asside from your specific example, I agree with you on the (general) point
of the impetus to technology et al that warfare can give. So long as it
isn't completely devistating; IMO, many of the wars that wracked Anuire
were probably pretty devistating. Technology developed to Renaissance
levels, but social infrastructure (such as would support large standing
armies), on the other hand, was wrecked. Thus you still have knights n
noblemen, not a powerful king and centralized bureocracy. It is this social
infrastructure, and the improved tax-collecting capabilities, that allowed
armies to once again rise to the same percentage of the population that
they were in late antiquity; I.E. it isn't the tech level (to use a
Traveller phrase) that determines military capacity, but overall social
organization.
>
> If the case would that all/whole army was mecenaries then the economics
would
> have been badly hurt, but "pesant" armies do have quite litle cost for
the
> crown and plundring will pay the army (and the mecenaries) and will even
> produce gold for the crown. Thats how you really paied an army during
those
> days. This did save poor places from war and richer parts got more war.
>
Yes, but pludering, in the long run, produces effects similar to the 30
years war; N.B. by the end of the war, the armies of thouse that had been
involved at or near the begining were far smaller (the armies of, say,
France, which had itself escaped the devistation that shattered Germany,
were still powerful). Plus, lets have a raise of hands: how many gammers
out there have their Regents raise armies consisting primarily of
ill-equiped and ill-trained pesants, as opposed to "prestege" units? Real
world vs. Game world.
>
> The BR system don't handle the plundering of the enemies lands, all wars
> haven't been for increase your land but to fill your pockets with more
gold
> (reason why the swedes started war against the polish in 1590's).
>
yes it does, after a fashion; and ruthless plundering acurately reflects
the devistating effects I've described.
>
> Can this be for they haven't thought of bluffing, Karl iX "took"
Kopenhagen
> with 250 Hakkapaliter (there was over 4000 danish soldiers in the town at
the
> moment).
>
True, if it's one thing BR, and RPGs in general, don't model well, it isn't
plundering, but such big-time bluffs (after all, the DM can hardly ignore
the fact that his players have pathetic forces at their disposal, and, from
my experience, players themselves typically take the "I can take 'em"
approach, and at least fight for a bit before surrendering).

>
> I think that Orogs, Goblins should be counted as population, but it seems
like
> no one else thinks of them as inteligent beings than me.
>
I don't disagree that they're intelligent; and Goblins, certainly are taken
into account in the populations of, say, Thurazor & Markazor. But, IMO, the
pops of the various provinces reflect the population that contributes to
the local economy; I.E. not outcasts and raiders, Goblin, Oorg, or Human,
or whatever.

[Trizt]

On 02-Feb-98, E Gray (grayhome@Sprintmail.com) wrote about Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] -
Wow, that is alot of soldiers:

- ->>->>Just for fun I did estimate the human/demihuman population in Anuire and
- ->>->>got it to 2.534.000.
- ->And how accurate would those numbers be?
I would say it could be something like ±2%


- ->Ok, so where'd you get the % of the population umbers then? As for 16th
- ->Century Europe, small professional armies yes, mercenary ones?.

The number comes from the previous swedish royal historian.



//Trizt of Ward^RITE

-

[c558382@showme.missouri.]

On Tue, 3 Feb 1998, E Gray wrote:

> ->Ok, so where'd you get the % of the population umbers then? As for 16th
> ->Century Europe, small professional armies yes, mercenary ones?.
>
> >The number comes from the previous swedish royal historian.
>
> Which one was this? Of course you really should look at more than
> one source before making any claims...

True, because Sweden generally had a much higher rate of recruitment than
most other states. Likewise, Prussia in the c18 had a much higher rate.
France always had a low rate. 2% is a good overall rate for maximum
recruitment.

Early modern states typically demobilized completly after war, leaving no
standing force. When war was declared both sides mobilized. Mobilization
could take years.

Kenneth Gauck
c558382@showme.missouri.edu