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  1. #11
    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
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    Actually I'm far more inclined to agree with Gary on this one...just about every historical culture that lasts more than a few generations has developed a ruling class of some sort, and except for some rare exceptions these were nearly always hereditary. Including the boyars of the Russian steppes, for instance, who would make an excellent model for fighter/nobles of the Vos.

    Same with the Norse and Celts that the Rjurik are modeled after...plenty of hereditary nobility there, too, and plenty of refined culture if you look beyond the classic "barbarous" stereotypes at the art, poetics, and and other displays of social refinement.

    Irdeggman, I think your view of the Noble may be a very stereotypical one. I think Gary's arguing for a broader, more variable view of the noble, and moreover I've heard a lot of other voices in the Ch. 1 forum asking for a more flexible version of the Noble class, too. So I wouldn't treat this like it's all coming from left field, you may in fact be ignoring a chorus of voices who simply disagree with your view of "what is a noble."

    As for elves and dwarves, I think Gary's arguments were quite convincing. Elven nobles are mentioned everywhere in the 2e materials, and in fact I think there would be a plethora of liesured gentry amongst the elves - how many of these hi-tech immortals do you think actually work for a living, when there's all this wondrous arcana and technology to make their lives easier?

    As for dwarves, I have my own views on that: I think waht Gary said is right (though maybe a bit jargon-ish?). I can't imagine that many dwarven commoners have been Overthanes in the history of Baruk-Azhik. If they are so clannish, how do you believe clans are typically led? Would anyone vote for a leader who has a complete lack of leadership skills? Not likely. And who is most likely to have those skills? The ones who are born and raised to it, of course. Which means that inevitably the children and relatives of thanes will always have an advantage when election-time rolls around for their generation, because they've been groomed for positions of power and leadership from day 1. Not that this necesarilly means that the grooming was some fluffy Anuirean-style court training, but rather a combination of warfare, the arts of diplomacy and leadership, (I reckon that the Overthane must in fact be a wise master of mediation and diplomacy to keep the various clans from killing each other), and sound management of resources (Administrate). Stolid, fierce when roused, level-headed in judgement, and frugal - those are the ideal qualities I'd ascribe to a dwarven noble.

    Osprey

  2. #12
    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
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    Whether or not they ahve princes (and not all elven domains do) their leaders (see Tuarhivel) are chosen by an outside force - The Thorn Throne and not what is considered the right of ascension.
    Correction: the regent of Tuarhievel is chosen by the Thorn Throne. That says nothing about a noble class within the society. Two totally different things. There is no requirement for nobles to be regents, nor even blooded, simply to be a hereditary aristocracy of wealth and privelage. Really, can you think of a society where such a class doesn't exist, in one form or another? Hence the reason people have been asking for a more flexible version of the Noble class, I think; they want to fit it into their own versions of nobility in different regions and cultures.

  3. #13
    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
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    After a lot of dscussion with some other BR players, and considering stuff from other posts, here's a very simple possibility for altering the existing Noble class without too much fuss.

    Leave most things as they are, with the following exceptions (I'm not dealing with the flavour text at the moment, that's the last thing to be re-written):

    1. Drop the Resources class feature. This is rather redundant with the Wealth class feature anyways. Let PC's curry favor through diplomacy and good roleplaying, not because their class descriptions say they can.

    2. Drop the Coordinate class feature. While I like the theme, I think its one of those abilities that is worthless 90% of the time, and brokenly overpowered where it can be applied. Consider that this bonus applies to each contributing member of a team-based task...at higher levels, a +6 per person with say 4-6 people contributing, gets really out of control. And in many cases, when the resources of a domain can be called upon, thre's no decent guidelines limiting the number of contributors. Broken.

    3. With those 2 dropped, there is now room to allow for occasional Bonus Feats, allowing for a degree of flexibility that is totally lacking in the current incarnation of the 3.5 Noble. The feats can add that bit of flavor, culture, and character individuality that seems to be desired by many (most?) BR fans.

    I would recommend one bonus feat per five levels, starting at 2nd level. So bonus feats at levels 2/7/12/17. This would place it nicely in-between Favored Regions (at 1/5/10/20) and [at higher levels] Presence (at 9/14/19) - the 2 best and strongest features of the class IMO.

    As nobles are so broadly possible, in truth nearly any non-magical feat could be appropriate, so I would put very few if any restrictions on this. Combat feats (except exclusive Fighter feats, of course), skill-enhancing feats, and regent feats are all justifiable for the Noble.


    Short, simple, quite effective, and hey, whaddya' know - still almost perfectly balanced with the 3.5 Ranger template, except with only 1 strong save [Will]. If anything, Rangers are still slightly stronger, but Nobles are compensated by a greater variety of class skills and bonus feats.

    What do you think, BR folks?

    Osprey

  4. #14
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    Osprey, I thik you've hit the nail on the head, but we may want to restrict the list f feats that the Noble can take as bonus feats. Otherwise we have a feat-monster like the fighter with alot more charm..
    "It may be better to be a live jackal than a dead lion, but it is better still to be a live lion -- and usually easier."

    - R. A. Heinlien, from The Collected works of Lazarus Long

  5. #15
    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
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    Osprey, I thik you've hit the nail on the head, but we may want to restrict the list f feats that the Noble can take as bonus feats. Otherwise we have a feat-monster like the fighter with alot more charm..
    Fighters are feat monsters because they get a bonus featat 1st, 2nd, and every 2 levels thereafter, ad infinitum...that's why they're feat monsters: because they have so many feats, rather than an overly huge range of choices. At one feat per 5 levels (and I even bucked the norm slightly in favor of less feats; if I followed the more typical 3.5 progression, they'd have feats at levels 2/6/11/16, and then another at 21 in epic levels&#33, they're hardly going to become "feat monsters." I think a wide list of possible feats only makes them more diverse and interesting, not more powerful.

    Oh, and almost forgot: I think Coordinate +2, by itself, would serve fine as a one-time class ability or bonus feat. By itself it seems okay, it's the stacking at higher levels that broke it. However, I have a feeling that as a bonus feat it would never get chosen anyways, because it simply has too specialized of a use. Just a further reflection on that matter.

  6. #16
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    I still think that people are reading the noble way wrong. Check out the aristocrat (from the DMG) - the initial basis for the class, the Noble from Star Wars d20, the Noble from Wheel of Time and the Noble Power Class from Mongoose Pub (for jsut some likely sources) and you (plural not anyone in specific) will see a very common theme here and that is the one that was being drawn from.

    The Vos will have no equivalent for the noble. The class is based on leasure time spent under education and tutoring. The Vos can't read and despise and distrust those that do. They are more nomadic than are even the Rjurik and their domains are very unstable and changing (gosh could be a lack of true leadership from either a noble class or a fighter class).

    Dwarves using any description given to the race in pretty much any WotC (or related) source are not the kind to go in for leasure styled activities. They are notorious for their work ethic. Clans tend to be family oriented and focus around a specific craft. Dwarves are very craft oriented, which they learn from their clans and apprenticeships. So how well can that translate into a knowedge/formal education heavy class.

    Dwarven culture (in 3.0) had a pretty good write up in a Dragon Magazine (When I get home I'll check and post the issue number). In most aspects Cerilian dwarves don't differ all that much from the standard dwarf, usually only in their physical attributes.

    Rjurik culture revolves around druids primarily as their leaders. Check out the 2nd ed Celtic Handbook for some really good info that it can be readily seen where BR got its info from. Rjurik cities are a fairly recent development and their culture has historically relied on bards to pass info on to the different clans (and now cities). Rjurik culture also has been portrayed as a heavy work-ethic oriented culture and not near the leasure oriented one that the noble class comes from (the class is based on the rites of priviledge).

    If we go the way people are suggesting then Nobles really aren't based on this priviledge and hence should have far less skill points and options since these were based on having the time and resources to acquire them.

    As far as elves I don't see a reall difference in how the average elf is treated in regards to having access to tutors and skills to make the distinction of the noble class.
    Duane Eggert

  7. #17
    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
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    If we go the way people are suggesting then Nobles really aren't based on this priviledge and hence should have far less skill points and options since these were based on having the time and resources to acquire them.
    Noble skills are reflective of only leisure time and book learning? Oral traditions can't tutor a person as fully as a literate one? I see no reasons the Rjurik druids and skalds couldn't be just as effective teachers as an Anuirean's tutors, or a University scholar. If skill points came only from privelage and book learning, Rangers wouldn't get 6 skill points a level, would they?

    Why in the world, then, do nobles have Survival as a class skill? or Ride? or the Base Attack Bonus of a fighter, if they spend so much time studying?

    I think WOTC, Wheel of Time, Star Wars, and everything else you mention are as guilty of falling prey to stereotypes as everyone else. I've found little proof that these versions of the Noble are very well researched based on any historical cultures. On the other hand, I've seen massive evidence of cliche class descriptions and world settings in many D20 products.

    I just want Birthright to be better.

    The Vos will have no equivalent for the noble. The class is based on leasure time spent under education and tutoring. The Vos can't read and despise and distrust those that do. They are more nomadic than are even the Rjurik and their domains are very unstable and changing (gosh could be a lack of true leadership from either a noble class or a fighter class).
    I'm actually OK with this, as the Vos are definitely described as a very un-advanced culture. They are, in fact, the one culture where Fighters actually make sense to be the dominant regents in more civilized areas, though the Boyars of Earth still make an excellent cultural model for them.

    Dwarves using any description given to the race in pretty much any WotC (or related) source are not the kind to go in for leasure styled activities. They are notorious for their work ethic. Clans tend to be family oriented and focus around a specific craft. Dwarves are very craft oriented, which they learn from their clans and apprenticeships. So how well can that translate into a knowedge/formal education heavy class.

    Dwarven culture (in 3.0) had a pretty good write up in a Dragon Magazine (When I get home I'll check and post the issue number). In most aspects Cerilian dwarves don't differ all that much from the standard dwarf, usually only in their physical attributes.
    Well, sorry, I don't get Dragon magazine, but feel free to take inspiration from there if you think it is actually a good argument. Just because it's published by WOTC doesn't make it any higher quality in my book.

    I'm all for craft-orientation for the dwarves, same argument as above applies here. Why not Nobles with Craft skills for Cerilian Dwarves? Makes sense to me.

    Rjurik culture revolves around druids primarily as their leaders. Check out the 2nd ed Celtic Handbook for some really good info that it can be readily seen where BR got its info from. Rjurik cities are a fairly recent development and their culture has historically relied on bards to pass info on to the different clans (and now cities). Rjurik culture also has been portrayed as a heavy work-ethic oriented culture and not near the leasure oriented one that the noble class comes from (the class is based on the rites of priviledge).
    Again, I'm not deeply attached to this one, as I think Rangers and Fighters work fine for the Rjurik aristocracy as long as they're allowed to be functional landed and law regents. Again, Rangers have as many skill points as nobles, but are more focused on physical skills, which makes sense for their culture. And yes, scholarship was typically in the hands of the Druids (Celtic) and Skalds (Norse) - makes me wonder about the Druids skill set for BR, but I won't get into that here. Anyways, that's why they were the teachers for one another and for the aristicracy.

    As far as elves I don't see a reall difference in how the average elf is treated in regards to having access to tutors and skills to make the distinction of the noble class.
    And I would say the opposite - that the Noble class is quite common among the affluent elves. See last post on subject concerning elven affluence - I don't want to repeat myself. Suffice to say that elves should be given the freedom to choose if they want to pursue a social/leadership path without becoming sneak-attacking rogues. Though Bards are also an excellent choice for elven socialites.

    In the end, every single character has the same amount of time growing up. Everyone recieves training. And every culture has a privelaged class, it's just a question of what their culture believes are the best ways to raise their aristocracy. I think nobles of any culture could have 6 skill points a level, the differences would be what class skills they have available. Which is why I like Rangers as nobles in more physical cultures like Rjurik and Vosgaard.


    Rather than seeing this issue as people reading it "way wrong," perhaps it would be useful to see what people want, and ask why they want it, instead of assuming that published materials must be more correct because somebody managed to get it in print and sell it. More often than not, that just means it appeals to the masses, and has little reflection on the quality of the product. Star Wars and WoT are popular because they're based on popular genres, and then were made into RPG's, not the other way around. Haven't read Mongoose, so no opinion there.

    Lucky for us, we're not trying to sell our Birthright revision to anyone, so we don't have to gear the product toward selling as many copies as possible. I'd rather create something that leads the way, heck maybe even teaches people a few things about what a mature setting can look like while we're at it. That would be nice.

    Osprey

  8. #18
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    Rjurik culture revolves around druids primarily as their leaders. Check out the 2nd ed Celtic Handbook for some really good info that it can be readily seen where BR got its info from. Rjurik cities are a fairly recent development and their culture has historically relied on bards to pass info on to the different clans (and now cities). Rjurik culture also has been portrayed as a heavy work-ethic oriented culture and not near the leasure oriented one that the noble class comes from (the class is based on the rites of priviledge).
    From what little I've read about 2ed Rjurik I found that their is a clear distinction between the wild parts of Rjurik realms and the large urban areas of the richer realms. With the latter I would fully agree with you, but with the former it is entirely possible that a noble class could have developed. As Osprey pointed out, the probably would still have a different list of skills, but that points to the argument of having a more flexible noble class rather than a rigid one.

    I think that the noble class that Osprey is proposing would exist in every part of Cerilia, it is just a question of how common it is. In Anuire it would be the most comman, in Vos and Rjurik realms it would be the least. Any body here ever read Trinity or Ivan Hoe (two historical novels) or seen braveheart. The main characters here were exceptional. They were much rarer in their societys than the same skill sets (excluding the fighting abilities) would have been found in England. Still they existed.

    The one alteration I would make to Ospreys class is a different skill set for each race or culture. Obviously a dwarven Noble would have the Craft skill.
    Build a man a fire and he will be warm for a night. Set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

  9. #19
    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
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    The one alteration I would make to Ospreys class is a different skill set for each race or culture. Obviously a dwarven Noble would have the Craft skill.
    Rather than make a dozen variations of the Noble class, which is a messy proposition, I would instead recommend making those skills that apply to that race/culture be racial class skills.

    For instance, it seems like absolutely no big deal to add to the dwarven racial traits that Craft is a class skill for all dwarves, regardless of class. Because really, what dwarf wouldn't have at least the opportunity to learn a Craft skill? It wasn't even an issue previously, as every other PC class in BR besides the Noble already had Craft as a class skill. Heck, even Fighters have it! Thus, this should mean no real effect on the dwarven racial type's game balance, as it affects only a single PC class (and Aristocrats are a class I'd just leave out of dwarven society - they're too fluffy for dwarves).

    I can't really think of any for elven nobles not on the base class list except perhaps Spellcraft, which could also be an elven racial skill, though I personally feel that K/Arcana, already a noble class skill, is sufficient to cover this - a theoretical rather than procatical/experiential knowledge of arcane magic. If they want experience with magic, take a few levels of an arcane class, as they're favored classes for elves anyways.

    There are already racial background skills for the human cultures, which I believe will pretty well cover the skills considered most appropriate for a noble from a given human culture (if they're not already noble class skills).

    And really, what other skills would need to be added besides the one for dwarves? Nobles have a pretty broad set of class skills as it stands, which is one of the reasons I'm led to believe the class was originally designed for a broader array of cultures. As I mentioned earlier: why else would they have Survival as a class skill? Only rural nobility could possibly be believed to possess this, yet the urbane portrait of the noble, the class "as is", still has it as class skill.

    In general, it's much easier (and "DM-friendly") to have more class skills rather than less, as the DM can always say "no, that's not appropriate to your background," but it's less likely the same DM would allow a class skill that's not on the list. And DM's who are flat-out "by the book" without allowing for circumstance, are well...not very good DM's.

    In general, any PC's actual list of skills with ranks in them should be reflective of their background and experience. So a big list of class skills doesn't really mean the typical noble will have ranks in every skill, just that they have that option without blowing those precious skill points on cross-class skills (generally a real waste of skill points compared to an occasional level of multiclassing).

    Osprey

  10. #20
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Some history on the subject of nobles and skill based RP collection:

    Past thread on Noble class:

    The noble class:
    http://www.birthright.net/forums/ind...showtopic=1366



    This thread also references SS's noble, which ia another one similar to the ones I previously mentioned.

    The noble’s class skills as presented in the revised chap 1:

    The noble's class skills (and the key ability for each) are Administrate (Wis), Appraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Lead (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (all skills taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Perform (Cha), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Speak Language, Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), and Warcraft (Int).


    Learning by doing works for most of the skills but definitely not for the following: Administrate, Diplomacy, Knowledge, Speak Language. Perform works best if acquired via the leisure and tutoring concept. And since Administrate was pointed out as one of the key skills available for the noble and one of the main reasons that they are so good at rulership the rationalization for how this skill can be so readily acquired to a class that doesn’t revolve around privilege and the assets available to hire the best tutors.





    Past discussion on the skill based RP collection system:


    http://www.birthright.net/forums/ind...showtopic=1268

    http://www.birthright.net/forums/ind...showtopic=1492

    http://www.birthright.net/forums/ind...showtopic=1516

    http://www.birthright.net/forums/ind...showtopic=1989
    Duane Eggert

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