BIRTHRIGHT] - Question about El

[Dan]

>1) I read that the elves are immortal. does that strike anyone as a
>little odd? not only odd, but i think it a little strange to have
>immortal pc's and npc's running around. if this is true, than think of
>all the elven kingdoms... they could possibly have to same ruler/regent
>since before Deismaar!! is there a particular way the elves run their
>government, so that the same elf doesn't rule forever? i am only a high
>school senior, and not having much money to throw around, i have only
>been able to pick up a few accessories.

I'm a senior too, so I understand the problem. Why not pick up the
Tuarhievel sourcebook for an idea on an elven government. It'll only run you
about $7.00 if you can find it. By the way, technically an elf could be
ruling since deismaar, but most of those kings have died violently either at
that battle , or in battles against ruthless human and goblinoid invaders.
Bearcat
lcgm@elogica.com.br
Come visit Bearcat's Birthright Homepage at:
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/6204

[HSwiftfoot]

In a message dated 98-01-26 18:12:55 EST, you write:

[Mark A Vandermeulen]

On Mon, 26 Jan 1998, Erik M Samhammer wrote:

> 1) I read that the elves are immortal. does that strike anyone as a
> little odd? not only odd, but i think it a little strange to have
> immortal pc's and npc's running around. if this is true, than think of
> all the elven kingdoms... they could possibly have to same ruler/regent
> since before Deismaar!! is there a particular way the elves run their
> government, so that the same elf doesn't rule forever? i am only a high
> school senior, and not having much money to throw around, i have only
> been able to pick up a few accessories. (that's kinda why i joined this
> list) but in everything i have read, nothing really goes into detail on
> elven ruling. does this mean that the DM and PC's are up to their own to
> come up with a way of government?

The Elves of Cerilia are each considered to be their own little
monarchies, and yes, some of the kings and queens are VERY old, and
remember the time before the coming of humans to the continent. But, there
is one important factor that offsets this. It is a biological fact (and
I'm a Ph.D. student in biology, so I know of what I speak) that there is a
trade off between any species' life span and its birth rate (or, more
properly, its "rate of increase"). That is, if an individual of the
species lives longer, then it tends to produce fewer offspring at a time,
and to delay longer between "bouts" of reproduction. This means that an
individual elf would probably see having one child every hundred years as
a lot. Elves to not produce new population very fast, and so are at a
disadvantage against other species (i.e. humans and goblins) which
reproduce much faster and can afford to loose 10-100 soldiers for every
one elf killed. This is cheifly why the elven culture is in decline in
Cerilia: humans have the goblin's advantage (reproduction rate) with out
having the goblin's disadvantage (inability to get or remain organized).
If you're concerned about having immortal elves as characters
along side mortal human characters, consider this: many people on this
list have advocated allow the elves NO HEALING SPELLS. They have no
clerics, and therefore have no healing spells of their own, but they may
in fact be repulsed by the very idea: They will NOT have it done to them
because it goes against the Way of Nature. They can still heal normally
when resting, and can benefit from herbalism and healing proficiencies,
but they will not have the filthy human clerical magic used on them--it is
a very powerful cultural taboo. That should help to provide some game
balance for players who feel they get a raw deal by being mortal.
And anyway, realistically, few campaigns last long enough that the
characters get in danger of dying from old age. Oh, by the way, the elves
are NOT immortal in the sense that the Highlander is immortal, just in
that they never die from old age: they can still be killed by sword,
arrow, or fireball.

Mark VanderMeulen
vander+@pitt.edu

[Mark A Vandermeulen]

On Mon, 26 Jan 1998, HSwiftfoot wrote:

> This brings up an interesting point...if Elves are eternal, how come there
> aren't scads of 20th and 30th level characters running around? I realize
> advancement is slow at higher levels, but when you have millenia to work with,
> who cares? There ought to be at least a few ultra-powerful characters around,
> which I'm not sure I like in a world that has a lot of appeal due to its being
> "low powered". And another thing...if elves can be so powerful how come they
> let the short-lived mortal humans walk all over them?

Elves live happy lives. They are much more in tune with their own phyches
and are very rarely subject to the neuroses, phychoses, fits of manic
activity and depression, singleminded obsessions, and other problems that
plague humanity, but also provide it with so much restless energy and
drive. Elves always take time out to spend with their families, revel in
companionship, express themselves artistically, excell in the pursuits of
lofty but impractical goals, and basically enjoy the hell out of life. But
it doesn't leave much time or energy for worrying about how to counteract
the latest variant of the fourth level version of the second level spell
"Tie Army's Shoelaces Together." Besides, most of them take the long view,
that "this too will pass," eventually the humans must burn out in their
own fierce light. Only the elite in the elven kingdoms spend much time
thinking about what's happening out from under the eaves of their forests.
And if they are rightly alarmed by what they see, they see it as their
duty to protect the happiness and innosence of their subjects for as long
as they can (kind of like Rangers and Hobbits in TLotR).

How's that for a justification. Actually, I would say that there are a lot
of elves of middle levels (and thus their average level is higher than the
humans) but they have have relatively few very powerful individuals, and
most of those are in positions of power already--and capable of acting in
concert to any threat at little more than a moment's notice.

Mark VanderMeulen
vander+@pitt.edu

[veryfastperson@juno.com]

And another thing...if elves can be so powerful how come they
let the short-lived mortal humans walk all over them?

Allright, allright, I may be asking rhetorical questions, my point is
just
that having a race of immortals presents some problems. How have
others dealt
with it?


My point on this is that the elves can't do anything about the humans. i
guess it's like all the stories you hear about dragons... they are so
powerful, but humans have the advantage with their amazing numbers. any
dragon would probably kill any human one on one, but you get a couple
legions of humans, and the dragon is hard pressed. and the books say that
the turning point in the war of the humans and elves, was the human
clerical magic. i really have a hard time believing this. if the elves
couldn't handle the humans clerics, how could the humans handle the elven
mages? and not to stray too far off topic, but how did humans have mage's
before deismaar? the requirements for a human true mage, is that you have
to be Blooded. well, how many humans were blooded before deismaar? so how
exactly did the followers of Vorynn cast spells? or were they all just a
bunch of magicians? the books i have read haven't been too specific on
what happened before Deismaar, just that humans beat the elves back deep
into the forests, using their clerical magic. i tended to answer
evasively whenever a PC asked about this, but now, does anyone have
something that could clear this up? i'd appriciat it.

Erik Samhammer

"I will try to disbelieve that the bridge just collapsed as I step out
into the gorge..."

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[Brian Stoner]

Erik M Samhammer wrote:

> how did humans have mage's
> before deismaar? the requirements for a human true mage, is that you have
> to be Blooded. well, how many humans were blooded before deismaar? so how
> exactly did the followers of Vorynn cast spells? or were they all just a
> bunch of magicians? the books i have read haven't been too specific on
> what happened before Deismaar, just that humans beat the elves back deep
> into the forests, using their clerical magic. i tended to answer
> evasively whenever a PC asked about this, but now, does anyone have
> something that could clear this up? i'd appriciat it.
>
> Erik Samhammer
>

I have always thought that Vorynn's followers were mere magicians. The
difference between elven wizards and human priests is a matter of numbers, like
so much else. There were reletively few elven wizards compared to many human
priests. And with specialty priests having access to all kinds of spells and
powers, they could almost wield similar power to wizards. So, the great
numbers of humans, their magicians, and priests were able to overwelm the fewer
numbers of elves and their few wizards, despite their power.

Brian

[Michael Andrew Cullingha]

> the turning point in the war of the humans and elves, was the human
> clerical magic. i really have a hard time believing this. if the elves
> couldn't handle the humans clerics, how could the humans handle the elven
> mages?

For my campaign, I've been able to answer this to my
satisfaction, so here's how I did it...

After a priest of Sera character in my campaign reached
4th level and his player pointed out the innate invisibility
power (1/day) that each of them have, I did some more reading.
When a priest of Kriesha character reaches 5th, he'll
get an Ice Storm/Ice Wall 1/day.

Now, assuming that the gods that died at Deismaar were
more powerful than the current gods, its not too hard
to imagine that low level priests wielded great powers,
and wielded equivalent powers to mages at much lower
levels. Perhaps a priest of Basaia gained Sunray or
Prismatic Ray even (IDHTBIFOM so I'm just going on memory
that Basaia had something to do with light and the sun,
but if not you still get the idea).

Anyways, that's how I see it...

Mike

[prtr02@scorpion.nspco.co]

I raised the problems of elven immortality a long time ago (on aol I think).
I rough summation, I don't believe we, as mortals, can comprehend the
ramafications of having an immortal race. One very basic question is, yes,
why aren't there a handful of level 30+ elven wizards running around and why
have the elves forgotten so much? It's only been a few elven "generations"
since diesmaar. If they're immortal, there's very little that a group of elves
wouldn't know if they put their heads together.

Basically, the comeback was "that's the way it is so too bad." I won't
swallow this. IMC elves live to be 800-1500 years old. They're effectively
immortal as far as the campaign and other races are concerned, but they do pass
on.

Randax

[Neil Barnes]

On Mon, 26 Jan 1998, Erik M Samhammer wrote:
> and the books say that
> the turning point in the war of the humans and elves, was the human
> clerical magic. i really have a hard time believing this. if the elves
> couldn't handle the humans clerics, how could the humans handle the elven
> mages?

Human priests cast Dispel Magic, Bless, Prayer & Recitation (Spells &
Magic). They can make quite a difference.

> and not to stray too far off topic, but how did humans have mage's
> before deismaar?

The humans only had magicians, and only the Vos had them in any numbers.

It's possible that the gods could grant certain humans the ability to
cast true magic - Azrai certainly did it, and it's possible that Vorynn
gave Ruornil to ability to cast magic. Some references seem to suggest
that the Masetians & Basarji had experience with magic before cominng to
Cerilia, and it may be that Basaia (a goddess of Magic) and Masela did
someethinng similar to Azrai - a very small number (maybe 5 at any one
time) of Wizards.

> just that humans beat the elves back deep
> into the forests, using their clerical magic. i tended to answer
> evasively whenever a PC asked about this, but now, does anyone have
> something that could clear this up?

Priestly magic is pretty good. Don't forget that it still allows you to
creeate magic items. But the biggest human advantage would be superior
numbers and the ability to breed like rabbits.

neil

[Darkstar]

Brian Stoner wrote:

> I have always thought that Vorynn's followers were mere magicians. The
> difference between elven wizards and human priests is a matter of numbers, like
> so much else. There were reletively few elven wizards compared to many human
> priests. And with specialty priests having access to all kinds of spells and
> powers, they could almost wield similar power to wizards. So, the great
> numbers of humans, their magicians, and priests were able to overwelm the fewer
> numbers of elves and their few wizards, despite their power.

Yes the followers of Vorynn (the Vos) were illusionists and diviners. It
was only some of the followers of Azari who gained access to true magic.
They were the ones who later became the lost (in my campaign a
collection of ancient lichs).

- --
Ian Hoskins

e-Mail: hoss@box.net.au
ICQ: 2938300
Home Page: http://www.box.net.au/~hoss/birth.html

From the Darkness we came,
and to the Darkness we will return.