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Thread: The Art Of War
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01-28-1998, 03:24 AM #11Samuel WeissGuest
The Art Of War
Gee Dan, we are in perfect agreement I do believe. The problems with some
of the things that you pointed out are more incomplete explanation on my
part than disagreement.
1. Genocide. I meant this only as killing off the population of your enemy
country. Any races in it, and only those of a particluar that happen to be
in it. Not really genocide but I suppose nationocide. Too clumsy a term for
me.
2. Guerilla problems when attempting this. Yes exactly. That is why it can
be so dang hard. That and finding enough dehumanized psychopaths in your
own nation to do that much killing.
3. Guerillas when doing the hearts and minds. Actually the whole goal of a
hearts and minds campaign is to avoid haviong such an opposition spring up.
Ideally you would end the resisitance before you even invaded through a
propoganda campaign. Then when you know they will welcome your entry, you
declare whatever formal war is needed and just roll on in. Anschluss time
and all. Vietnam was too late, the enemy already ahd their hearts and minds
campaign in place.
4. Labor camps. Not worth it IMO. Requires too much support from your own
infrastructure and offers almost no real return. Kill them and get it over
with or integrate them are what I would advise.
5. Miltary invasion with threat of Genocide. If doing the genocide thing,
you roll forward and exterminate. You do not conquer then do it, you kill
as you go. If doing basic military conquest and integration, you use the
Clausewitzian tactics I mentioned.
6. Captured infrastructure. It may not be as good as yours, but you can't
beat the price on it!
7. Poor international reputation. Well that is what your dilomatic corps is
for. The main thing is to make it clear that this what happens to those
that start trouble with you, not to any neighbor you feel like.
8. Your points on Rome vs. Carthage, Machiavellian tactics, and charismatic
dictators taking over are 100% accurate as far as I am concerned. Note, do
not set out to ba a Hitler or Mao, but if you want a blue print for seizing
power, thay wrote the books people, you can not deny that.
We need to get together and plot our takeover now dude. And let the world
know fear...
Samwise, Emperor Samwise the First to the rest of you.
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01-28-1998, 03:57 PM #12Neil BarnesGuest
The Art Of War
On Tue, 27 Jan 1998, Samuel Weiss wrote:
> 8. Your points on Rome vs. Carthage, Machiavellian tactics, and charismatic
> dictators taking over are 100% accurate as far as I am concerned. Note, do
> not set out to ba a Hitler or Mao, but if you want a blue print for seizing
> power, thay wrote the books people, you can not deny that.
Hitler lost. And Mao was reading Sun-Tzu - and he never got really
outside of China's traditional borders (except for Tibet, which I think
had been a Chinese possession before?).
The best examples of gratuitous world conquest are Alexander the Great
and Gengis Khan. Other good examples are Julius Caesar and the British
Empire (gotta get a bit of nationalism in there :).
neil
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01-28-1998, 04:38 PM #13Samuel WeissGuest
The Art Of War
Hitler was referenced only in regards to his taking over of germany. His
inability to seize power outside his country is well known, and is why he
will never be used as an empire builder model, only a power seizing one.
Similarly with Mao, it is the power grab being referenced, not external
affairs.
And sorry, can't include the Brits in the "gratuitous world conquest"
category. it wasn't. it was "incidental world conquest". Your silly
merchants, explorers, and other do gooders ran rampant, and by the time
things started settling down, The Widow of Windsor wound up with an Empire.
( Yes I love Kipling. I would reccommend him too for any would be empire
builder as well. Some good advice on manangeent policies there.)
Samwise
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01-28-1998, 06:53 PM #14Neil BarnesGuest
The Art Of War
On Wed, 28 Jan 1998, Samuel Weiss wrote:
> And sorry, can't include the Brits in the "gratuitous world conquest"
> category. it wasn't. it was "incidental world conquest".
That's the point. By land area, it's the second largest empire in
history (I think), by population again somewhere in the top three. And
it was pretty much acquired by accident.
There may be a lesson in there for all of those who want to conquer
Cerilia...
neil
....and it's probably that breach loading rifles and disciplined
infantry are the way to go :)
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01-28-1998, 07:14 PM #15Neil BarnesGuest
The Art Of War
On Wed, 28 Jan 1998, Dan wrote:
> At 11:38 28/01/98 -0500, you wrote:
> >Hitler was referenced only in regards to his taking over of germany. His
> >inability to seize power outside his country is well known, and is why he
> >will never be used as an empire builder model, only a power seizing one.
> >Similarly with Mao, it is the power grab being referenced, not external
> >affairs.
>
> Thanks Samuel, that's basically how I would have responded to Neil. I had
> reffered to their power grab within their own country, rather than their
> external affairs, at which both were notoriously bad.
This is what comes from only skimming a conversation & then butting in.
Oops.
With vague reference to Hitler, I've just seen the Ian McKellan film
version of Shakespeare's Richard III. Very cool - set in 1930's Britain,
but lot's of stuff that can be mined for BR campaigns. I've decided that
all my Anuirean characters are going to refer to peoplke by the name of
the domain they rule - "My lord Ghoere" for example - because it sounds
so good in the plays.
I've also just seen a Fistful of Dollars, and was thinking that the
Mexican Bandits make a nifty rolemodel for Goblins - obviously we don't
want to use the 'Comedy Mexican' accent, because it's pretty insulting
to Mexican's, but some sort of 'Comedy Goblin' accent could be pretty
cool. I was imagining something with a with very strong 'k's and a sort
of z/th lisp for 's' (based on the sorts of names that Goblin kingdoms
have).
"Tho Meethter Boend, Ah thuppoth yu think yu've been werry klever."
Although when I try to pronounce it, I find myself slipping into 'Comedy
Frahnch' accent. Oh well.
neil
(This is the same sort of thinking that gave my Triads in a Feng Shui
game comedy New York Italian accents. :)
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01-29-1998, 03:15 AM #16Samuel WeissGuest
The Art Of War
Ok Dna, let me take care of these two.
1. "Legions of Doom". Quite right there. For any who want to be totally
shocked, go the wargaming route and try "Days of Decision II" from
Australian Design Group. It lets you start WWII in 1936 and do some major
political maneuvering. Play thoses Nazi scum like civilized people and
watch the minor powers come to your camp. Then add in the free Czech,
Yugoslav, and a few others to your GErman army and watch The Allies and
Soviet Union collapse like wet noodles. Kind of scary actually.
2. Lost post. Ok I think I know the one you mean. I addressed 8 points back
to you on where we seemed to disagree. Mail me at
sweissbb@worldnet.att.net
and I will send it on to you.
As for Kabila, I guess that is one case where, "Image is everything, thirst
(for power) is nothing. Build your image."
Samwise
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01-29-1998, 03:57 AM #17Samuel WeissGuest
The Art Of War
>There may be a lesson in there for all of those who want to conquer
Cerilia...
neil
....and it's probably that breach loading rifles and disciplined
infantry are the way to go :)<
Well we can't get breech loaders, but we can get the disciplined infantry.
Then again, the Empire used some serious non combat tactics as well. I am
no fan of the british Empire, mind you, but they had some few tricks of
their own there. Maybe the real lesson here is read your history people, or
Santayana's curse will surely fall upon you.
As for conquering Cerilia, bear in mind this even more important thing. Not
Alexander, not Caeser, not Genghis, not anyone of our people had to deal
with the Gorgon. Now there is some perspective for you.
Samwise
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