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[The Jew]

Vaumel, for instance, need only rule up Seaward high enough (L7 I'd say) so that he can upgrade his shipyards and start cranking out a few galleons. As he isn't lacking for money nor the ability to decieve Avan, the only real obstacle is his ability to actually rule a province that high. Once he did all of this, well...then it would be high time to declare independence from the oppression of Avanil! And at that point he could style himself just about whatever he darn well pleased. Mieres is all about naval supremacy, so it really requires him to get that navy into a position of dominating the straits and defending against anything Avan might launch against him. Not to mention the overall power Vaumel could wield by dominating trade (and piracy) in the Straits...Mieres has some awesome potential to be a dominant power in the south, though the only real lacking quality is probably Vaumel's incompetence as a landed regent and his short-sighted greed blinding him to the big picture. Nevertheless, as a PC realm where a better regent comes into power, it has some great potential.

And isn't this exactly why Darien Avan would never let any ruler of Mieres develop a level 7 province or a shipyard of that size. The threat to Avanil could be catastophic. Their is no real way a province or shipyard of that size could be developed without it coming to Avanils attention. If I was Darien I would have put out a decree a while back setting a cap on the development of any single province within Mieres beyond 5 and would inforce it with brute force if neccessary. I would also forbid Mieres from buying to strong of a navy, building a fleet to be rented out to Mieres if neccesary, but making sure that the admiral was a trusted lieutenant if not a close relation.

[Osprey]

And isn't this exactly why Darien Avan would never let any ruler of Mieres develop a level 7 province or a shipyard of that size. The threat to Avanil could be catastophic. Their is no real way a province or shipyard of that size could be developed without it coming to Avanils attention. If I was Darien I would have put out a decree a while back setting a cap on the development of any single province within Mieres beyond 5 and would inforce it with brute force if neccessary. I would also forbid Mieres from buying to strong of a navy, building a fleet to be rented out to Mieres if neccesary, but making sure that the admiral was a trusted lieutenant if not a close relation.

Wow - you redefine the meaning of "oppression." That's one viscious version of Avan you've got there - I have a hard time imagining Avan would be so carefully protective of Mieres. Somehow I've always imagined him scoffing at the notion that Aaron Vaumel could be any kind of real threat, and dismissing such notions as foolishness. "Mieres? The colony? I seriously doubt it."

Or something to that effect. I've always imagined Avan sees the colony more like the British viewed the Americas - a source of revenue and production, but a backwater incapable of real prosperity and the kind of far-sighted ambition capable of challenging his power. On the other hand, the Brits did levy such severe kinds of trade and economic restrictions backed by martial force on the 13 colonies. Lucky for Vaumel he owns the guilds...also, it was those restrictions that eventually chafed the colonists into open, and ultimately successfuly, rebellion.

As Avan is an NPC with all the advantages, I think it's important as a DM to definitely be aware of and play out his faults. Otherwise he'll simply win - period.

Osprey

[The Jew]

Not at all. As you mentioned in previous posts its important that the powerful NPC's battle it out, so that they do not completely dominate the PC's. The Americans would not have had a chance against the British if it wasn't for support from the French, most importantly being naval support. Bouriene and any other seapower on the southern coast could gain from Mieries breaking off from Avanil, and so with the proper roleplaying and strategizing those navies could be used to keep the Avanil navy at bay.

The other key component of Americas independence was that they George III was either politically inept or insane, neither attribute I would proscribe to Darien.

but a backwater incapable of real prosperity and the kind of far-sighted ambition capable of challenging his power.

If mieres Actually looked like it could become only the 4th fourth realm to have a level 7 city and therefore capable of producing Galleons even a bad ruler would have to re-evaluate such an opinion.

[Osprey]

If mieres Actually looked like it could become only the 4th fourth realm to have a level 7 city and therefore capable of producing Galleons even a bad ruler would have to re-evaluate such an opinion.

Heh heh heh, so a cunning Vaumel sneaks over to Ilien, strikes a deal with Aglondier, and funds the building and support of Ilien's shipyards, so long as he can quietly make some of those galleons for himself. Likely Vaumel would slip in a Law holding for security reasons (protecting his investments), butoverall this could be a great example of successful diplomacy, a win-win deal at least in the short run. Ilien gets some big shipyards, maybe even insists that Vaumel pay some extra tribute (and/or rental fees?) for their use and allowing the galleons to anchor in the harbor as the fleet takes shape.

If Avan were smart, he'd be keeping an eye on Ilien, too, but the big problem for Avan is this: he's still just ONE regent, with 3 domain actions a turn. Since Ilien itself is no threat, would he really use one of those precious domain actions for Espionage there? Not to mention El-Hadid would make it very difficult and expensive, even to set up a Spy Network.

[Don E]

Originally posted by Osprey@May 12 2004, 03:02 PM
If Avan were smart, he'd be keeping an eye on Ilien, too, but the big problem for Avan is this: he's still just ONE regent, with 3 domain actions a turn. Since Ilien itself is no threat, would he really use one of those precious domain actions for Espionage there? Not to mention El-Hadid would make it very difficult and expensive, even to set up a Spy Network.

Perhaps El-Hadid is just what Avan needs. It would be of great benefit to the prince if he could solicit the guilders help to ensure Ilien and Mieres does not get too cozy. And how could El-hadid say no in return for some help in getting a share in the Mieran market?

[The Jew]

The first thing he does though is send an emissary over to Bouriene and give Aeric a chance to hurt Darien significantly. When the Illien/mieres fleet goes into action it is supported by the Bouriene fleet. Mieres covers the upkeep cost and promises trade routes, but mostly does is it just to fuck over Darien. With some diplomacy Vamuel gets the powerful NPC's to cancel each other out. The DM maybe allows things to run a little bit more smoothly then they might in real life, say ignore the possibilities of Bouriene invading Mieres, so that the PC's have a chance.

[The Jew]

Originally posted by Don E+May 12 2004, 09:20 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Don E @ May 12 2004, 09:20 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Osprey@May 12 2004, 03:02 PM
If Avan were smart, he&#39;d be keeping an eye on Ilien, too, but the big problem for Avan is this: he&#39;s still just ONE regent, with 3 domain actions a turn. Since Ilien itself is no threat, would he really use one of those precious domain actions for Espionage there? Not to mention El-Hadid would make it very difficult and expensive, even to set up a Spy Network.

Perhaps El-Hadid is just what Avan needs. It would be of great benefit to the prince if he could solicit the guilders help to ensure Ilien and Mieres does not get too cozy. And how could El-hadid say no in return for some help in getting a share in the Mieran market? [/b][/quote]
El-hadid though of course has to consider that if Illien aids in the independence of Mieres from Avanil it is already in a situation to pick a nice slice of trade from Mieres. This of course is what makes Birthright to enjoyable, the endless possibilities for different coalitions to play out to reshape the map of Cerilie, the political map at least.

[Osprey]

Perhaps El-Hadid is just what Avan needs. It would be of great benefit to the prince if he could solicit the guilders help to ensure Ilien and Mieres does not get too cozy. And how could El-hadid say no in return for some help in getting a share in the Mieran market?

The thing is, we&#39;re assuming that Avan is on to Vaumel&#39;s ambitions, and is taking steps to counter him. Vaumel&#39;s inherent nature is sneaky, so one of his real advantages inthis is doing it all without Avan picking up on it. Since Avan has a bunch of other things to worry about, like Boeruine and the Manslayer, plus maintaining or expanding his power in Tuornen and Diemed, it&#39;s hard to imagine he&#39;s going to take a break and go court El-Hadid against Mieres. This is only believable if he already has a very good idea of what Vaumel is up to, and somehow I doubt that, since Vaumel&#39;s guilds and secretive nature describe him as being very good at hiding the bulk of his illicit activities from Avan.

Besides, if Avan does catch on, it must be time to distract him with some "problem," like pirates in the Arienbae or raiders hitting the coasts of Avanil, or smugglers stealing from Daulton&#39;s trade routes. Hit him close to home, and he won&#39;t cast his gaze so far abroad, where the real threat exists.

One of the greatest uses of Espionage, which sadly my players haven&#39;t really exploited yet, is the ability to create Events in a domain. Get 2 or 3 allied regents doing this at once, and you can easily keep even big guys like Avan or Ghoere runnning around like chickens with their heads cut off trying to keep theri realm from splintering apart. The effect on lesser realms is with few competent lieutenants, of course, even more devestating.