E Gray on Mon, 19 Jan 1998 at 18:36 mentioned:

> investment in food production

Investment: Surely this is very likely. Landlords attempting to
profit from this market (you'll see many of them with the
proficiencies Administration, Stewardship, Agriculture, &c) will
certainly be able to achieve yields of 7-8:1.

> Yes, and perhaps TSR was just a little overeager to have
> Impcit be among the best of the best..

Best of the Best: The rating of the City of Anuire is not exaggerated.
Like Rome, there would be substantial wealth in the city as a result
of its remaining imperial functions (registration of heraldry,
headquarters of various knightly orders, grand temples, prominent
factors among the guilds) as well as gifts. There is no reason that
the rating implies a large tax-paying population, rather it could
represent a lot of higher financial functions.

Brian Stoner on Mon, 19 Jan 1998 at 17:02 mentioned

> keep[ing] in the Chamberlain's good graces (in hopes of being
> proclaimed Emperor). . . He could try to force the Chamberlain's
> hand...but the other regents of Anuire wouldn't like that much.
> And even Avan doesn't want to upset the balance that way -- to
> do so would unravel all his plans and cost him everything.

Forcing the Chamberlain's hand or starving the city are both
blunt instruments, unnecessary for the canny regent. (see below)

James Ruhland on Mon, 19 Jan 1998 at 19:03 mentioned

> it is not technically imposible to have such a high population . . .
> Constantinople, Cordova, and Baghdad . . . Chang'an, had even
> higher populations.

I stated that Rome had a population of a million. Paris had 200,000
in the Renaissance. But, Rome had Sicily and Egypt. Paris always
controlled the Seine basin. Certainly some city could be this large.

Brian Stoner on Tue, 20 Jan 1998 at 00:28 wrote

> Other stuff to consider about the Imperial City: Rome may have
> had only 40,000 during the medieval period, but it was sacked with
> the fall of the Empire. Also, Byzantium existed as a large
> cosmopolitan center throughout the medieval period (until it fell
> to the Turks near the end of the period), and yet had a rather
> small Empire. It survived almost exclusively on trade.

True, the City of Anuire wasn't sacked by the Goths, but its is a
city that has lost much of its urban activity. Second, it has
suffered its share of destruction (the Royal College of Sorcery is
just an example of the kind of factional fighting that seems to
have beset the city). While Byzantium was cosmopolitan, it was
clearly in decline after the crusaders occupied the city of
Constantinople. After that Venice dominated its trade to its own
benefit while Constantinople languished. After 1261, the Greeks
were restored politically, but still unable to do anything about
the rising Ottoman power. Subsequent to the fall of Adrianople,
Emperor John V became a dependent on the Ottomans. Once the
capital lost its hinterland, it lost its independence.

James Ruhland on Mon, 19 Jan 1998 at 19:03 mentioned

> As for your economic data, translating the gold-rich
> fantasy world figures to real-world equivilents is a notoriously
> dificult task.

Lee Ha1854 on Mon, 19 Jan 1998 at 23:56 wrote

> I doubt that many guilders would favor a move like cutting off
> the food trade to the City. Any number of other guilders who
> don't have connections in would fall all over themselves to get> into that market. I really can't see any combination of all of
> the traders in Southern Anuire banding together long enough to
> make an embargo stick...
> Thus, I can't see the population having a real ceiling.
> I'm playing Brosengae/Brosen Royal Guild in a PBEM game, and I
> would love for some of my rivals to cease trading with
> The City-- more for me!

1) Embargoes are an innovation far later than the Renaissance.
Even if some Guilder or regent wanted to, there was no way to seal
borders or halt trade. As late as the c18, 2/3 of English trade was
smuggling. Both France and England depended on the illicit trade.
2) Where does a mountainous country like Brosengae suddenly get the
grain to replace another food source lost to the City? By my
estimation, Brosengae is lucky to be feeding itself The only really
rich farmland under the sway of Brosen Royal Guild is the province
of Anuire, and her food must already be going to the City. The
people of the City won't want the wood and metals you normally
trade in (at least not to eat).
3) The key point is the City's vulnerability. (see below)

Daniel McSorley on Tue, 20 Jan 1998 at 00:49 mentioned

> ...No way any embargo could be placed on the Imperial City.
> ...Relies on Diemed and Avanil for its food supply. [...] any
> number of potential rivals, Ghoere, Boeruine, Alamie, etc.
> who would lift it by force [...] The Chamberlain, Dosiere [...]
> would make sure that the offending regent, and his descendants
> had no chance to ever claim the throne. That man wields an
> enormous amount of power, just by suggesting that he might
> favor a cantidate, he could easily raise an army to aid him
> and the people of the city.

Lift the embargo by force? As I mentioned above, I am not talking
about an embargo, I'm talking about the inability of the City to
control its own food supply. Imagine Avanil and Diemed go to war.
Armies will eat all that food in Caulnor, Anuire, Ciliene, and Moere
leaving the capital hungry. If Avanil or Diemed owned such a great
city, they would be forced to give battle just to relieve the
situation, but since they don't they could easily claim an
inability to do anything and plead that they would drive out the
enemy and feed the city if only the City aided them.

This whole business about these regents trembling in fear of the
Chamberlain is nonsense. Many posts have mentioned how no one would
dare commit any unseemly act with regard to the city. Well, either
humans in these campaign worlds are utterly different from humans
in the real world or the posters are unfamiliar with the long history
of just such acts. Even a brief list could go on for pages, but I
will mention a few key events between 1400 and 1600 to illustrate
several points. Henry V's execution of the prisoners at Agincourt.
Henry was aware of the international code (regulated by heralds)
governing prisoner-captor relations. Its most important provision
being a guarantee of the prisoner's life. Moreover a prisoner's
life was protected by the Christian commandment against killing.
Even a well founded expectation that the prisoners were about to
break out, would not (by custom) justify their execution. Henry's
vassals refused to carry out the order (while fighting was honorable,
butchery was not. Henry got 200 archers to slaughter the captives.
If Henry escaped the condemnation of his peers, the Church, and the
chroniclers, it is owing more to his victory and the understood threat
that the French still possessed a third division and had already
committed a crime of their own by attacking the luggage.

In 1530 the Army of Charles V sacked Rome and the Pope was briefly
taken prisoner by the forces of the Holy Roman Emperor and Catholic
King of Spain.

The Franco-Turkish alliance. Since the Turks were seen by most
Christians as agents of Satan (see Druerer's woodcuts) the alliance
shocked the opinion of Europe. It's the equivalent of allying
with the Gorgon.

The Duke of Alba's reign of terror at Brussels in which 12,000
people died.

Politics is an arena of power. Standards may try to regulate
behavior, but practice is another thing altogether. Maybe overtly
hostile actions against the City would damage a regent, but never
has such injury held over to his heir. The fact is that good kinds
are weak, unable to overawe their barons and compel them. A good
king is strong and something of a bully. He has to be or he finds
he is defied. In the long history of Anuire some one would have
grabbed the City, if it were a prize, despite the cost. Someone
would have. Cities left to themselves might not fall immediately,
but they fall in a generation or two. You will find that cities
such as the City of Anuire are either dependent on stronger allies,
or swallowed. They cannot stand alone.

DKEvermore on Tue, 20 Jan 1998 08:54 mentioned

> profit

Of course there is a difference between profit and revenue, or
more appropriately, holdings and income. Medieval cities fed
themselves by dominating the countryside. The Imperial City of
Anuire has no such means (explained). The one offered so far
is awe of the Chamberlain, but a look at the behavior of people
both in power and in their daily lives shows them to be liars,
cheats, and scoundrels. As John Adams said, if men were angels
we would have no need of government. BR is a game of government.
Dirty politics, hard ball politics, and crimes of every stripe are
as much a part of the game as they are anywhere actual humans
reside.

Anyway, the real problem with the assumption that the City can
support 400,000, or more outrageously, has no limit, is that it
does not control its hinterland. Therefore instead of supporting
itself it must purchase its food. This was the purpose of my
cost estimate. To show that the city would need to export such a
vast quantity of goods (an almost impossible quantity) as to make
it such a prize that there would almost be a race to grab it.

You'll note that in the computer game it falls in the early game
more often than it survives into the midgame.

DKEvermore on Tue, 20 Jan 1998 08:54 wrote:

> So perhaps you might consider stepping back from all this
> numerical analysis and pause to consider that the game rules
> might not consider every aspect of living in a major medieval city.

D&D is not an economic simulation. Dragon #242 "Mage Construction"
refers to cloud cities, clearly without an identifiable food supply.
It is a role-playing game and so the key question is, "what roles
do your players want to play." The section "Realism vs. Fantasy"
in the Wilderness Survival Guide offers what I consider to be
excellent advice when it mentions if you don't want the natural
world intruding in your campaign feel free, but if your players
are going to ask questions and attempt activities based on a
real-world understanding, you have a problem. If your players are
willing to suspend disbelief for huge metropolises without observable
food supplies, or conjecturally tenuous supplies, fine. But if
you're players (or you) feel that a realistic sense of the world
is important (to make the fantastic special), then you have to
consider such things.

While D&D is not itself an economic simulation, it is hardly unable
to represent basic macro-economics in a convenient way. All it takes
is a working knowledge of how the world worked during your base era.
As to making the money convertible to a fantasy campaign, economic
history and clio-metrics have all kinds of techniques to give a
DM the kinds of tools they need. To calculate the amount of money
spent on food, I used a chart in Fernand Braudel's _Stuctures of
Everyday Life_ that used hours worked to measure real wages.
Whatever the problems involved in converting money from reality
into a fantasy campaign, hours will work quite well in most campaigns.

Kenneth Gauck
C558382@showme.missouri.edu