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  1. #1
    c558382@showme.missouri.
    Guest

    reply to Anuire City population

    E Gray on Mon, 19 Jan 1998 at 18:36 mentioned:

    > investment in food production

    Investment: Surely this is very likely. Landlords attempting to
    profit from this market (you'll see many of them with the
    proficiencies Administration, Stewardship, Agriculture, &c) will
    certainly be able to achieve yields of 7-8:1.

    > Yes, and perhaps TSR was just a little overeager to have
    > Impcit be among the best of the best..

    Best of the Best: The rating of the City of Anuire is not exaggerated.
    Like Rome, there would be substantial wealth in the city as a result
    of its remaining imperial functions (registration of heraldry,
    headquarters of various knightly orders, grand temples, prominent
    factors among the guilds) as well as gifts. There is no reason that
    the rating implies a large tax-paying population, rather it could
    represent a lot of higher financial functions.

    Brian Stoner on Mon, 19 Jan 1998 at 17:02 mentioned

    > keep[ing] in the Chamberlain's good graces (in hopes of being
    > proclaimed Emperor). . . He could try to force the Chamberlain's
    > hand...but the other regents of Anuire wouldn't like that much.
    > And even Avan doesn't want to upset the balance that way -- to
    > do so would unravel all his plans and cost him everything.

    Forcing the Chamberlain's hand or starving the city are both
    blunt instruments, unnecessary for the canny regent. (see below)

    James Ruhland on Mon, 19 Jan 1998 at 19:03 mentioned

    > it is not technically imposible to have such a high population . . .
    > Constantinople, Cordova, and Baghdad . . . Chang'an, had even
    > higher populations.

    I stated that Rome had a population of a million. Paris had 200,000
    in the Renaissance. But, Rome had Sicily and Egypt. Paris always
    controlled the Seine basin. Certainly some city could be this large.

    Brian Stoner on Tue, 20 Jan 1998 at 00:28 wrote

    > Other stuff to consider about the Imperial City: Rome may have
    > had only 40,000 during the medieval period, but it was sacked with
    > the fall of the Empire. Also, Byzantium existed as a large
    > cosmopolitan center throughout the medieval period (until it fell
    > to the Turks near the end of the period), and yet had a rather
    > small Empire. It survived almost exclusively on trade.

    True, the City of Anuire wasn't sacked by the Goths, but its is a
    city that has lost much of its urban activity. Second, it has
    suffered its share of destruction (the Royal College of Sorcery is
    just an example of the kind of factional fighting that seems to
    have beset the city). While Byzantium was cosmopolitan, it was
    clearly in decline after the crusaders occupied the city of
    Constantinople. After that Venice dominated its trade to its own
    benefit while Constantinople languished. After 1261, the Greeks
    were restored politically, but still unable to do anything about
    the rising Ottoman power. Subsequent to the fall of Adrianople,
    Emperor John V became a dependent on the Ottomans. Once the
    capital lost its hinterland, it lost its independence.

    James Ruhland on Mon, 19 Jan 1998 at 19:03 mentioned

    > As for your economic data, translating the gold-rich
    > fantasy world figures to real-world equivilents is a notoriously
    > dificult task.

    Lee Ha1854 on Mon, 19 Jan 1998 at 23:56 wrote

    > I doubt that many guilders would favor a move like cutting off
    > the food trade to the City. Any number of other guilders who
    > don't have connections in would fall all over themselves to get> into that market. I really can't see any combination of all of
    > the traders in Southern Anuire banding together long enough to
    > make an embargo stick...
    > Thus, I can't see the population having a real ceiling.
    > I'm playing Brosengae/Brosen Royal Guild in a PBEM game, and I
    > would love for some of my rivals to cease trading with
    > The City-- more for me!

    1) Embargoes are an innovation far later than the Renaissance.
    Even if some Guilder or regent wanted to, there was no way to seal
    borders or halt trade. As late as the c18, 2/3 of English trade was
    smuggling. Both France and England depended on the illicit trade.
    2) Where does a mountainous country like Brosengae suddenly get the
    grain to replace another food source lost to the City? By my
    estimation, Brosengae is lucky to be feeding itself The only really
    rich farmland under the sway of Brosen Royal Guild is the province
    of Anuire, and her food must already be going to the City. The
    people of the City won't want the wood and metals you normally
    trade in (at least not to eat).
    3) The key point is the City's vulnerability. (see below)

    Daniel McSorley on Tue, 20 Jan 1998 at 00:49 mentioned

    > ...No way any embargo could be placed on the Imperial City.
    > ...Relies on Diemed and Avanil for its food supply. [...] any
    > number of potential rivals, Ghoere, Boeruine, Alamie, etc.
    > who would lift it by force [...] The Chamberlain, Dosiere [...]
    > would make sure that the offending regent, and his descendants
    > had no chance to ever claim the throne. That man wields an
    > enormous amount of power, just by suggesting that he might
    > favor a cantidate, he could easily raise an army to aid him
    > and the people of the city.

    Lift the embargo by force? As I mentioned above, I am not talking
    about an embargo, I'm talking about the inability of the City to
    control its own food supply. Imagine Avanil and Diemed go to war.
    Armies will eat all that food in Caulnor, Anuire, Ciliene, and Moere
    leaving the capital hungry. If Avanil or Diemed owned such a great
    city, they would be forced to give battle just to relieve the
    situation, but since they don't they could easily claim an
    inability to do anything and plead that they would drive out the
    enemy and feed the city if only the City aided them.

    This whole business about these regents trembling in fear of the
    Chamberlain is nonsense. Many posts have mentioned how no one would
    dare commit any unseemly act with regard to the city. Well, either
    humans in these campaign worlds are utterly different from humans
    in the real world or the posters are unfamiliar with the long history
    of just such acts. Even a brief list could go on for pages, but I
    will mention a few key events between 1400 and 1600 to illustrate
    several points. Henry V's execution of the prisoners at Agincourt.
    Henry was aware of the international code (regulated by heralds)
    governing prisoner-captor relations. Its most important provision
    being a guarantee of the prisoner's life. Moreover a prisoner's
    life was protected by the Christian commandment against killing.
    Even a well founded expectation that the prisoners were about to
    break out, would not (by custom) justify their execution. Henry's
    vassals refused to carry out the order (while fighting was honorable,
    butchery was not. Henry got 200 archers to slaughter the captives.
    If Henry escaped the condemnation of his peers, the Church, and the
    chroniclers, it is owing more to his victory and the understood threat
    that the French still possessed a third division and had already
    committed a crime of their own by attacking the luggage.

    In 1530 the Army of Charles V sacked Rome and the Pope was briefly
    taken prisoner by the forces of the Holy Roman Emperor and Catholic
    King of Spain.

    The Franco-Turkish alliance. Since the Turks were seen by most
    Christians as agents of Satan (see Druerer's woodcuts) the alliance
    shocked the opinion of Europe. It's the equivalent of allying
    with the Gorgon.

    The Duke of Alba's reign of terror at Brussels in which 12,000
    people died.

    Politics is an arena of power. Standards may try to regulate
    behavior, but practice is another thing altogether. Maybe overtly
    hostile actions against the City would damage a regent, but never
    has such injury held over to his heir. The fact is that good kinds
    are weak, unable to overawe their barons and compel them. A good
    king is strong and something of a bully. He has to be or he finds
    he is defied. In the long history of Anuire some one would have
    grabbed the City, if it were a prize, despite the cost. Someone
    would have. Cities left to themselves might not fall immediately,
    but they fall in a generation or two. You will find that cities
    such as the City of Anuire are either dependent on stronger allies,
    or swallowed. They cannot stand alone.

    DKEvermore on Tue, 20 Jan 1998 08:54 mentioned

    > profit

    Of course there is a difference between profit and revenue, or
    more appropriately, holdings and income. Medieval cities fed
    themselves by dominating the countryside. The Imperial City of
    Anuire has no such means (explained). The one offered so far
    is awe of the Chamberlain, but a look at the behavior of people
    both in power and in their daily lives shows them to be liars,
    cheats, and scoundrels. As John Adams said, if men were angels
    we would have no need of government. BR is a game of government.
    Dirty politics, hard ball politics, and crimes of every stripe are
    as much a part of the game as they are anywhere actual humans
    reside.

    Anyway, the real problem with the assumption that the City can
    support 400,000, or more outrageously, has no limit, is that it
    does not control its hinterland. Therefore instead of supporting
    itself it must purchase its food. This was the purpose of my
    cost estimate. To show that the city would need to export such a
    vast quantity of goods (an almost impossible quantity) as to make
    it such a prize that there would almost be a race to grab it.

    You'll note that in the computer game it falls in the early game
    more often than it survives into the midgame.

    DKEvermore on Tue, 20 Jan 1998 08:54 wrote:

    > So perhaps you might consider stepping back from all this
    > numerical analysis and pause to consider that the game rules
    > might not consider every aspect of living in a major medieval city.

    D&D is not an economic simulation. Dragon #242 "Mage Construction"
    refers to cloud cities, clearly without an identifiable food supply.
    It is a role-playing game and so the key question is, "what roles
    do your players want to play." The section "Realism vs. Fantasy"
    in the Wilderness Survival Guide offers what I consider to be
    excellent advice when it mentions if you don't want the natural
    world intruding in your campaign feel free, but if your players
    are going to ask questions and attempt activities based on a
    real-world understanding, you have a problem. If your players are
    willing to suspend disbelief for huge metropolises without observable
    food supplies, or conjecturally tenuous supplies, fine. But if
    you're players (or you) feel that a realistic sense of the world
    is important (to make the fantastic special), then you have to
    consider such things.

    While D&D is not itself an economic simulation, it is hardly unable
    to represent basic macro-economics in a convenient way. All it takes
    is a working knowledge of how the world worked during your base era.
    As to making the money convertible to a fantasy campaign, economic
    history and clio-metrics have all kinds of techniques to give a
    DM the kinds of tools they need. To calculate the amount of money
    spent on food, I used a chart in Fernand Braudel's _Stuctures of
    Everyday Life_ that used hours worked to measure real wages.
    Whatever the problems involved in converting money from reality
    into a fantasy campaign, hours will work quite well in most campaigns.

    Kenneth Gauck
    C558382@showme.missouri.edu

  2. #2
    James Ruhland
    Guest

    reply to Anuire City population

    >
    > I stated that Rome had a population of a million. Paris had 200,000
    > in the Renaissance. But, Rome had Sicily and Egypt. Paris always
    > controlled the Seine basin. Certainly some city could be this large.
    >
    And Venice et al controled outright very little land territory (until after
    the sack of Constantinople. But even then most of what they grabed were
    mechantile bases, not agricultural lands). Venice imported it's food from
    elsewhere, and never seemed to lack for supplies. The City of Anurie can
    take it's food supplies from the Anuire river basin, as well as imports
    from elsewhere (so long as most of the transportation can be done by ship,
    it remains economical to do so.)
    Ok, 400,000 may be to high. But I consider 40,000 to low; remember, the
    city of Illien is supposedly populated by 70,000 people, and it is "the 2nd
    highest populated city," after Anuire the city. So I'll stick with my circa
    100,000 figure. Also, note that this is a fantasy world (if a "realistic"
    one). Metropolitan centers are typically more common, and more highly
    populated, in fantasy worlds.


    > While Byzantium was cosmopolitan, it was
    > clearly in decline after the crusaders occupied the city of
    > Constantinople. After that Venice dominated its trade to its own
    > benefit while Constantinople languished. After 1261, the Greeks
    > were restored politically, but still unable to do anything about
    > the rising Ottoman power. Subsequent to the fall of Adrianople,
    > Emperor John V became a dependent on the Ottomans. Once the
    > capital lost its hinterland, it lost its independence.
    >
    Confirm most of what you say here but take exception to "Greeks", as the
    "Byzantines" always considered themselves to be the possessors of the Roman
    Empire, and thus Romans (as late as the early 20th century there were
    Greek-speakers who refered to themselves as Roman).

    >
    > > As for your economic data, translating the gold-rich
    > > fantasy world figures to real-world equivilents is a notoriously
    > > dificult task.
    >
    I see you had no rejoinder to this. I would love to see one. Economics,
    esp. Midieval economics is a (minor) hobby of mine, and I'd like to see
    "realistic" but still "fun" fantasy-midieval economic systems (one of the
    reason's BR is so fun is it has a workable system. Though I still think way
    too much emphasis is given to trade.)

    > 2) Where does a mountainous country like Brosengae suddenly get the
    > grain to replace another food source lost to the City?
    >
    Terraces? rich pockets of agricultural area (it certainly gets enough
    rainfall). I think of Greece, which would on the map (a BR map) look
    "mountanous", but still had plenty of urban centers (Athens, Corinth,
    Thebes; Laconia was more rustic, but still had a fairly decient population,
    Argos, etc). (admitedly, Athens for example, had to import much of it's
    food, and pop. presures were a driving force behind Greece's colonization
    drive. But the cities didn't fade away, they just relieved some of the
    presures by doing so.)

    >
    > Lift the embargo by force? As I mentioned above, I am not talking
    > about an embargo, I'm talking about the inability of the City to
    > control its own food supply.
    >
    What do you mean by "control it's own food supply"; as I said, cities that
    didn't directly control/have soverignity over it's food source, somehow
    managed to exist (oh, and in midieval times, having soverignity over the
    land doesn't nessisarily increase your ability to "control" it; armies of
    burgundians, englishmen, rebellious vassals, and your own merry bands of
    brigands still wander through the area, locust-like).
    >
    > This whole business about these regents trembling in fear of the
    > Chamberlain is nonsense. Many posts have mentioned how no one would
    > dare commit any unseemly act with regard to the city.
    >
    I didn't; I *do* think of the Chamberlain as a Pope-equivilent, with
    respect to the prestige and regard he is held in, but, as you point out,
    this didn't keep either the city of Rome, or the person of the Pope safe
    (one of the things the armies of the 1st Crusade had to do was re-take Rome
    from the German King that was occupying it at the time. And Urban II was a
    pretty popular dude). 1) the natural defenses of the city keep it,
    Venice-like, from such activities. 2) it's a fantasy world. Perhaps the
    various regents treat the Chamberlain with more deference than real-world
    rulers treated the Pope. At any rate, the Chamberlain's safer in Anuire
    than the Pope was in Rome, 'cause Rome is indefensable (which is why the
    later Roman emperors kept experimenting with new, more defensable, capital
    cities.) Thus, any Regent bold enough to try and attack the city &
    Chamberlain directly would be more likely to fail than succeed. It wouldn't
    be worth the risk, from a pragmatic point of view.

    BR Fact: the City of Anuire is independant from nearby Regents.
    Thus, the goal is to explain why this is (do you think if Avan, or even
    Duke Diem, could take the city, he would? Yes; so the goal is to explain
    why this hasn't happened, not why it should have.)
    >
    >
    >
    > Anyway, the real problem with the assumption that the City can
    > support 400,000, or more outrageously, has no limit, is that it
    > does not control its hinterland. Therefore instead of supporting
    > itself it must purchase its food.
    >
    again, I consider this a flawed argument, 'cause many cities of high
    population had to purchase or import food, sometimes from a great distance.

    >
    > You'll note that in the computer game it falls in the early game
    > more often than it survives into the midgame.
    >
    True; I think this is because the Computer game is different (though I
    enjoy it a lot) from PnP BR. For one thing, it most often falls to an NPC,
    or because of strange actions undertaken by the Chamberlain; it's an AI
    factor. (usually, what happens is the Chamberlain n his merry band of
    reavers invade, say, Avanil, somhow the city's fortification is traded away
    to another power, then a regent, usually Avan, invades the city. The
    Chamberlain doesn't return to defend his city, and it is invested the next
    turn.) In PnP BR, I doubt any DM would have the Chamberlain behave in this
    fashion. Also, in PnP BR, the city is defended by the Imperial Legion, one
    of the better units available in the game. Ian/Darkstar rules that there
    are 10 such units. Also, in PnP BR, if I was DMing, you couldn't just walk
    up to the city and Besiege/assault it. You'd need a fleet, and a strong
    one. And, as I mentioned (briefly) in a reply to someone (sorry, can't
    remember who) who said the city is surrounded by strong walls, IMO it has
    defenses of a more mystical nature (some kind of modified Warding that the
    COS can emplace during times of danger, or other barrier. . .) And N.B.
    cities traditionally, if well provisioned, can withstand a siege longer
    than the besiegers can. I.E. Constantinople 715; the besieging forces
    started starving before the city did.
    >
    >
    > While D&D is not itself an economic simulation, it is hardly unable
    > to represent basic macro-economics in a convenient way.
    >
    Ok, yes; but I've tried to do similar things (take real-world econometric
    data and try to convert it to game-data). It's not as easy as just
    overlaying it on top whatever information the game designers have provided
    (for one thing, soldiers should then require pay more on the order of 6 GP
    per year than 6 per month.)
    BR's economic system is a *functional* one, not a *realistic* one. Note the
    difference. I can (and have) quibbled about it's flaws (mainly with respect
    to how dominant Trade Routes are compaired with "normal" wealth, which, in
    a midieval system, should be agricultural-based). But it functions.
    However, taking the BR economic system, then adding on "real world"
    economic stuff creates an unworkable result (IMO). Anyhow, enough babbling.

  3. #3
    c558382@showme.missouri.
    Guest

    reply to Anuire City population

    On Thu, 22 Jan 1998, James Ruhland wrote:

    > And Venice et al controled outright very little land territory (until after
    > the sack of Constantinople. But even then most of what they grabed were
    > mechantile bases, not agricultural lands). Venice imported it's food from
    > elsewhere, and never seemed to lack for supplies.

    The Hungarian-Venetian war of 1378-81 illustrates Venice's vulnerability.
    The Hungarians occupied the Terra Firma, while their allies Genoa
    blockaded Venice by sea. Venice was cut off and forced to break the
    blockade. Venice succeded in destroying the Genoese, but ceded virtually
    all of Dalmatia to Hungary at the Treaty of Turin. Afterward Venice
    maintained the largest fleet and was able to protect her sea lanes.

    > Ok, 400,000 may be to high. But I consider 40,000 to low

    I just said 40,000 was explainable without effort. 100,000 is utterly
    realistic.

    > Confirm most of what you say here but take exception to "Greeks"...

    Used Greeks to distinguish between the Latin powers and the Byz.

    > > > As for your economic data, translating the gold-rich
    > > > fantasy world figures to real-world equivilents is a notoriously
    > > > dificult task.
    > >
    > I see you had no rejoinder to this. I would love to see one. Economics,
    > esp. Midieval economics is a (minor) hobby of mine, and I'd like to see
    > "realistic" but still "fun" fantasy-midieval economic systems (one of the
    > reason's BR is so fun is it has a workable system. Though I still think way
    > too much emphasis is given to trade.)

    Economics isn't fun. I think most people only bother with it because the
    more you know about a subject the harder it is to suspend disbelief. The
    over-emphasis on trade is obviously an attempt to keep rogue charachters
    from being losers in the game.

    > I think of Greece, which would on the map (a BR map) look
    > "mountanous", but still had plenty of urban centers (Athens, Corinth,
    > Thebes; Laconia was more rustic, but still had a fairly decient population,
    > Argos, etc). (admitedly, Athens for example, had to import much of it's
    > food, and pop. presures were a driving force behind Greece's colonization
    > drive. But the cities didn't fade away, they just relieved some of the
    > presures by doing so.)

    The situation is Greece was a bit more grim. A close look at the culture
    revals a high inceidence of infanticide, certainly a population control
    measure. The colonization was another responce to over-population. An
    absolutly wonderful book is _The Ecology of the Ancient Greek World_ by
    Robert Sallares. Its a 600 page $70 book, but with seven chapters (290
    pgs) on demography and 12 chapters (and another 100 pgs) on agriculture,
    its a fantastic piece of schalarship. In fact one of the key differences
    between the classical period and the Hellenistic was that the populations
    of the poleis. Populations had fallen off substantially by the
    Hellenistic period. Recall that the Spartan "empire" collapsed because
    they could not make up the population losses after one battle, Leuktra.
    Even still, Athens at her hight had 150,000, and when her imported
    grain supply was cut off, Sparta won the Peloponessian War. Attica is
    probably the equivilent of two Illien's.

    > What do you mean by "control it's own food supply"

    I mean "control" in the sense of place theory. That there are networks of
    interaction (markets, administrative, legal) which establish the dominace
    of certain locations over others. Examples from the modern world include
    maps of where major city newspapers or sold on the street. Some
    newspapers, the New York Times, LA Times, and Chicago Tribune divid the
    USA into three, there are also pockets for smaller cities. Pre-industrial
    cities had a set of zones in thier hinterland where goods were obtained.
    Closest to the cities were dairy, orchard, and vegetable farms, next were
    grains and intensive forestry, then livestock. In the Maesil River basin,
    four to six large cities compete for resources. In such an enviroment,
    where goods are obtained and taxes paid will influence where crops are
    sold. Are farmers in Ciliene producing for the City of Anuire, Moerel, or
    Aerele?

    > BR Fact: the City of Anuire is independant from nearby Regents.
    > Thus, the goal is to explain why this is (do you think if Avan, or even
    > Duke Diem, could take the city, he would? Yes; so the goal is to explain
    > why this hasn't happened, not why it should have.)

    In my opinion, and my campaign takes place in Baruk-Azhik, a million miles
    from the Imperial City, the City of Anuire is experiencing a recovery
    after a long period of inconsequence. For a long time aquisition of the
    City wasn't worth the cost, indeed just holding the city was a liability.
    Now its becoming attractive, but no one had made a move yet. The
    Chamberlain has the support of the Western and Orthadox Imperial Temples
    and is able to influence the casting of Bless Land realm spells. He
    seccures a food surplus in the region, makes friends with the powers in
    Anuire, Moerel, and Ciliene, and keeps people from risking the goose that
    lays the golden eggs. However, the vulnerability remains. Should a
    struggle develope between Avanil and the WIT on the one hand and Diemed
    and the OIT on the other, the City of Anuire is caught in the middle.
    Perhaps Dosiere keeps Boeruine's hopes alive to keep Avan looking west,
    while subtly encouraging Diem to dream about retaking Diemed's lost
    provinces, looking east.

    > many cities of high population had to purchase or import food, sometimes
    > from a great distance.

    Really just to supliment a vital hinterland, not as a hinterland.

    > Ok, yes; but I've tried to do similar things (take real-world econometric
    > data and try to convert it to game-data). It's not as easy as just
    > overlaying it on top whatever information the game designers have provided
    > (for one thing, soldiers should then require pay more on the order of 6 GP
    > per year than 6 per month.)

    Sometimes I take some of this data to be an abstraction (the soldiers cost
    includes not just pay, but all the other costs of a standing force, for
    example). I also adjust campaign data heavily. I have all the Player's
    Secrets, and consider them a great aid, but also consider 50% of the stuff
    there wrong. I could go on and on about the over-socialized dwarves in
    the B-A sup, but that would be whole other can of worms.

    Overall, James Ruhland, I find your observations on the mark. I have
    profited from your comments.

    Kenneth Gauck
    c558382@showme.missouri.edu

  4. #4
    James Ruhland
    Guest

    reply to Anuire City population

    >
    > The Hungarian-Venetian war of 1378-81 illustrates Venice's vulnerability.
    >
    Every city, in fact every "province" is vulnerable. The ImpCit is prolly
    "vulnerable", but for a variety of factors (mostly having to do with
    risk/reward ratio) it remains inviolate. I.E. a lord could do various
    things to take advantage of the cities (limited, IMO) vulnerabilities, but
    the chance of failure would be high, and the diplomatic (and other)
    penalties for such a failure would make only the rashest lords attempt it
    (the others might be tempted, but would be restrained by the
    self-preservation factor). Witness the disasterous results of the 30 years
    war on Germany, not just German cities, but the rural areas as well.
    However, Germany's population, including urban population, sprang back from
    this devistation relatively quickly.
    >
    > Economics isn't fun. I think most people only bother with it because the
    > more you know about a subject the harder it is to suspend disbelief. The
    > over-emphasis on trade is obviously an attempt to keep rogue charachters
    > from being losers in the game.
    >
    > > I think of Greece, which would on the map (a BR map) look
    > > "mountanous", but still had plenty of urban centers (Athens, Corinth,
    > > Thebes; Laconia was more rustic, but still had a fairly decient
    population,
    > > Argos, etc). (admitedly, Athens for example, had to import much of it's
    > > food, and pop. presures were a driving force behind Greece's
    colonization
    > > drive. But the cities didn't fade away, they just relieved some of the
    > > presures by doing so.)
    >
    > The situation is Greece was a bit more grim.
    > of the poleis. Populations had fallen off substantially by the
    > Hellenistic period. Even still, Athens at her hight had 150,000, and
    when
    > her imported grain supply was cut off, Sparta won the Peloponessian War.
    > Attica is probably the equivilent of two Illien's.
    >
    Snipped a bunch; all valid points & I'll have to check out that book. 8-)
    Good points re. drop off of Greece pop. during Hellenistic period; but
    rejoinder is that despite the use of the methods you describe to curb
    population, the pop. of Greece & it's cities was maintained at a high level
    until the aquisition of a massive imperial hinterland made it possible to
    disperse to new sites (Antiochea, Selefkia, Alexandria, et al)

    > > What do you mean by "control it's own food supply"
    >
    > I mean "control" in the sense of place theory. That there are networks
    of
    > interaction (markets, administrative, legal) which establish the dominace
    > of certain locations over others. Examples from the modern world include
    > maps of where major city newspapers or sold on the street.
    >
    The City of Anuire would then represent I.E. the Financial Times, which is
    sold on the street of every *major* and meaninful city in the world; I.E.
    it has a vast "network of interaction" (I.E. think of Roman grain
    transports that aquired grain from Ægypt even before the Roman's made it a
    province, and the use of the grain didn't eliminate the Ægyptian cities
    I.E. Alexandria. Of course the Nile river is a special case. But their's no
    reason to think the Anurian heartlands are poor agricultural lands.)


    > grains and intensive forestry, then livestock. In the Maesil River
    basin,
    > four to six large cities compete for resources. In such an enviroment,
    > where goods are obtained and taxes paid will influence where crops are
    > sold. Are farmers in Ciliene producing for the City of Anuire, Moerel,
    or
    > Aerele?
    >
    Moerel & Aerele are not, IMO, particularly large cities. Perhaps the
    dominance of the C.ofAnuire is why (I think of Moerel as more an auxilliary
    exurb to the City, much like Chalcedon, Rhaedestus, Selembria et al were
    for Constantinople).

    >
    > In my opinion, and my campaign takes place in Baruk-Azhik, a million
    miles
    > from the Imperial City, the City of Anuire is experiencing a recovery
    > after a long period of inconsequence. For a long time aquisition of the
    > City wasn't worth the cost, indeed just holding the city was a liability.
    > Now its becoming attractive, but no one had made a move yet.
    >
    Sniped out a bunch of interesting ideas. Really liked your stuff Re. Avan &
    Diem, though, and how the Chamberlain intrigues to keep their attentions
    elsewhere. IMO, taking a look at Diem's situation, keeping him focused
    elsewhere would be easy (he tries to use his limited resouces to sieze the
    city, and the spider or someone else takes advantage of his suddenly
    unguarded rear). Avanil is a slightily different matter; described as being
    willing to sacrifice virtually everything else to get a greater hold on the
    City (and Avan has by far the most to loose/sacrifice), IMO the Chamberlain
    trys to stay on Avan's good side; being most friendly to him (though
    perhaps surepititiously encouraging the dreams of Boerune as well), and
    telling him the C. will fall naturally into his hands once he gets the
    others to acclaim him Emperor (thus, keeping the City safe, for now). Also,
    IMO, Avan wouldn't try to take the C by force, but through subtle (or less
    than subtle) intrigues (stirring up/agitating the population on his behalf,
    etc.) The blunt instrument methods of assault, threats of assault, cutting
    off food supplies, etc would be counterproductive to this kind of effort.

  5. #5
    E Gray
    Guest

    reply to Anuire City population

    - -----Original Message-----
    From: James Ruhland
    To: birthright@MPGN.COM
    Date: Friday, January 23, 1998 4:34 AM
    Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - reply to Anuire City population




    >(I.E. think of Roman grain
    >transports that aquired grain from Æ.gypt even before the Roman's made it a
    >province, and the use of the grain didn't eliminate the Ægyptian cities
    >I.E. Alexandria. Of course the Nile river is a special case. But their's no
    >reason to think the Anurian heartlands are poor agricultural lands.)


    Actually more of the Roman Grain came from North Africa, Spain or
    even Gaul(France), rather than Egypt, though I'm sure some grain was
    exported from there.

    Of course Rome also had a excellent system of irrigation and agriculture,
    but most of their knowledge and resources was lost in the fall of the
    Empire..

  6. #6
    c558382@showme.missouri.
    Guest

    reply to Anuire City population

    On province vulnerability: The point I have had some trouble articulating
    is that most provinces require you actually enter the province to threaten
    it directy. But cities like Athens, Venice, Rome (after 100 BCE), and the
    City of Anuire, can be threatened by taking control of distant places.
    Athens fell because of Aegospotami, on the Dardenelles. Venice aquired
    the Terra Firma, in part, so that she could defend her interior and her
    food supply, rather than leaving it to others. Rome was regularly thrown
    into crisis by crisies in Sicily and Egypt. These illustrate that such
    conditions are possible on a day-to-day basis, but that its a
    vulnerability which can mean dependance, desparation, or surrender.

    On Fri, 23 Jan 1998, James Ruhland wrote:

    > >
    > > The Hungarian-Venetian war of 1378-81 illustrates Venice's vulnerability.
    > >
    > Every city, in fact every "province" is vulnerable. The ImpCit is prolly
    > "vulnerable", but for a variety of factors (mostly having to do with
    > risk/reward ratio) it remains inviolate.

    > ...only the rashest lords [would] attempt it (the others might be
    > tempted, but would be restrained by the self-preservation factor).

    I think I have a darker view of human nature, and that has effected my
    assertion that the City is not safe. Many players prefer campaigns called
    "heroic". The original age called heroic, the imagined predicessor of the
    Greek dark ages, when Achilles, Nestor, Herakles, and Perseus were out and
    about. But these guys can be calleed bandits by non-Greeks. It was "an
    age when a stranger was an enemy, ... plunder was replacing productive
    labor; law and order was collapsing; and it wasn't so easy to tell the
    heroes from the outlaws." Hero is a term that comes from your own camp,
    villain comes from the camp of the enemy. To boldly advance your cause is
    both heroic and criminal. Many campaigns are laced with the traditional
    good vs. evil. As a an impartial DM-type, I don't side with the PC's or
    their values. I more often oppose them with other interested characters.
    Of course there are orogs, undead, and the Gorgon (all clear enemies of
    the dwarves of Baruk-Azhik), but most game play focuses on the dwarven
    cults (worship of dwarven gods outside Moradin's approved group); the
    several factions of the country, each lead by a figure who truely desires
    the best for Baruk-Azhik, but whose ends and means are incompatable with
    the other factions; the civil war in the Rohrmarch; inter-clan problems.
    Diirk Watershold, for example is not the jolly figure portrayed in the BR
    information. He's involved in spying, smuggling, assasinations, and all
    kinds of non-heroic activity. Granted much of it is against the enemies
    of B-A, the Chimaeron, Osoerde, Kiergard, and of late Alaric of Rohrmarch,
    but it is the kind of behavior that a regular adventuring dwarven chanpion
    should avoid. While the Overthane in the campaign asks no questions, that
    wouldn't be good enough, if this PC didn't have a realm.

    > Witness the disasterous results of the 30 years
    > war on Germany, not just German cities, but the rural areas as well.
    > However, Germany's population, including urban population, sprang back from
    > this devistation relatively quickly.

    Germany recovered her losses (that is caught up) in the middle of the
    nineteenth century. Even during the c18, Germany was under-populated and
    had difficulty sustaining the kinds of commercial and industrial
    enterprises that England, France, and the low countries could sustain.

    > [the] rejoinder is that despite the use of the methods you describe to
    > curb population, the pop. of Greece & it's cities was maintained at a
    > high level until the aquisition of a massive imperial hinterland made
    > it possible to disperse to new sites (Antiochea, Selefkia, Alexandria)

    Very true, we're not talking life or death, we're taking the difference
    between Periclean Athens (dominant power in the Aegean, able to thwart
    Persia) and Hellenistic Athens (forced to submit to Macedonia, a non-Greek
    power).

    > The City of Anuire would then represent I.E. the Financial Times, which is
    > sold on the street of every *major* and meaninful city in the world

    True, but who reads it? Point being, Anuire City might be a crucial
    interative point for significant priests, nobles, guilders, a kind of
    Cerillian Wall Street. But who goes to Wall Street? The peasants and
    yeoman, journeymen and masters of the Maesil valley might only interact
    with such a high level place through many intermediaries, selling thier
    goods and buying wares in Daulton, Endier, Moerel, and Aerele.
    Wholesalers (guilders) would then handle the inter-city trade. Then
    again, Anuire could have a hinterland of farmers &c, though no larger than
    the other cities. Towns occur in clusters. A large and bustling Anuire
    means busy Daulton &c &c.

    > But their's no reason to think the Anurian heartlands are poor
    > agricultural lands.)

    If we're talking about trade along the Maesil and Tuor rivers, then we
    have to ask if there are tolls every couple of miles as there was in
    Western continental Europe. I would guess there are.

    > Moerel & Aerele are not, IMO, particularly large cities. Perhaps the
    > dominance of the C.ofAnuire is why (I think of Moerel as more an auxilliary
    > exurb to the City, much like Chalcedon, Rhaedestus, Selembria et al were
    > for Constantinople).

    Wouldn't these loactions have been even smaller without Constantinople?

    > IMO the Chamberlain trys to stay on Avan's good side; being most
    > friendly to him ... telling him the C. will fall naturally into his
    > hands once he gets the others to acclaim him Emperor (thus, keeping the
    City safe, for now).

    I imagine the Chamberlain tries to stay one everyone's good side, for the
    most part. Though I imagine he's capable of playing the dangerous games
    we have discussed.

    > IMO, Avan wouldn't try to take the C by force, but through subtle (or less
    > than subtle) intrigues (stirring up/agitating the population on his behalf,
    > etc.) The blunt instrument methods of assault, threats of assault, cutting
    > off food supplies, etc would be counterproductive to this kind of effort.

    I imagine that Prince Avan would portray himself as the protector of the
    Imperial City. He would play up anxiety of dangers from other quarters
    (the spider is 40 miles away, 2 days (?)) while soothing the city that he
    would let no harm come to it, perhaps even while formenting (very subtly)
    dangers.

    Ultimatly I suspect the fall of the city, if it were to occure, would be
    the result of the chamberlain making a tactical error. My thesis, the
    center of my life right now, centers on just such a blunder. Austria had
    seen itself as the champion of Catholicism since Ferdinand II 1619-1637,
    who brought the Counter-reformation to Austria. After Frederick the Great
    invaded Silesia, a genral partition war began. Bavaria claimed Bohemia
    and the Imperial title. The Papacy backed Bavaria over Austria.
    Insensed, Maria Theresa, a pious Catholic, backed those ministers who
    favored subordinating the Austrian church to the state, abandoning 150
    years of a partnership between church and state in Austria. Maria Theresa
    never re-gained Austria, but Austria over-ran Bavaria a year later and
    even crossed the Rhine, causing the French to abandon their client
    offering Austria the whole of Bavaria in exchange for peace. Rome backed
    the wrong horse. Perhaps someday Avanil will look beset on all sides, the
    Chamberlain will side with the current occupiers only to find Avanil
    turning the tide and already at war with her many neighbors, willing to
    punish the Chamberlain and take the city.

    Kenneth Gauck
    c558382@showme.missouri.edu

  7. #7
    James Ruhland
    Guest

    reply to Anuire City population

    >
    > On province vulnerability: The point I have had some trouble
    articulating
    > is that most provinces require you actually enter the province to
    threaten
    > it directy. But cities like Athens, Venice, Rome (after 100 BCE), and
    the
    > City of Anuire, can be threatened by taking control of distant places.
    > Athens fell because of Aegospotami, on the Dardenelles. Venice aquired
    > the Terra Firma, in part, so that she could defend her interior and her
    > food supply, rather than leaving it to others. Rome was regularly thrown
    > into crisis by crisies in Sicily and Egypt. These illustrate that such
    > conditions are possible on a day-to-day basis, but that its a
    > vulnerability which can mean dependance, desparation, or surrender.
    >
    IMO, you mearly exchange one vulnerability for another; take Venice for the
    example, say; Venice aquired the Terra Firma, but this by no means "solved"
    Venice's problem. In fact, by involving the city in inter-Italian politics
    (as opposed to merchantile conflicts, which, though they usually involved
    other Italian cities, were not of the same character, and Venice was
    usually able to come out on top in these battles). In fact, I would argue
    that the aquisition of the Terra Firma helped lead to Venice's decline.

    >
    > I think I have a darker view of human nature, and that has effected my
    > assertion that the City is not safe.
    >
    Oh, don't worry 'bout my view of human nature; it's dark enough. Note that
    in my argument's I have not so much said that lords will not attack the
    city out of some mystical reverence for it, but because the (IMO) large
    risks outweigh the (unlikely) rewards; because of (IMO) the city's
    defensable position, they are unlikely to succeed in any effort to sieze
    it. And because of it's position, only an uncommonly strong lord would be
    able to cut it off from access to external supplies (you'd need both a
    *particluarly* powerful fleet and army, which would be able to devote all
    it's attentions to the city without having to worry about other rulers
    taking advantage of your preoccupation). IMO, only a lord that already
    controled most of Anuire, and was de facto (if not de jure) Emperor already
    as a result, would be able to mobilize such a force. Many dream in their
    dark hearts of doing so, but not even Avan has the power. . .yet.
    >
    > > The City of Anuire would then represent I.E. the Financial Times, which
    is
    > > sold on the street of every *major* and meaninful city in the world
    >
    > True, but who reads it? Point being,
    >
    Point being who is preoccupied with Anuire the city? Only the best of the
    best (such as thouse who read the FT). In other words, Anuire the City
    draws into it's port and markets the best produce, the highest quality
    goods, etc, from all over Cerilia. It's a market to be competed for, not
    cut off. And, the people it draws to the city (the lords, merchants,
    priests, etc) will draw to them servants and a "support" population
    (remember, that before the renaisance, most major cities served mainly
    "ceremonial/governmental" functions; the presence of the kind of people you
    describe naturally served as a magate for the presence of a large servator
    population.) The servants etc. will need taverns and other areas of low
    repute (brothels et al) to relax in themselves, etc. . .
    >
    > > Moerel & Aerele are not, IMO, particularly large cities. Perhaps the
    > > dominance of the C.ofAnuire is why (I think of Moerel as more an
    auxilliary
    > > exurb to the City, much like Chalcedon, Rhaedestus, Selembria et al
    were
    > > for Constantinople).
    >
    > Wouldn't these loactions have been even smaller without Constantinople?
    >
    Yes, but IMO that supports my point more than it does yours; Constantinople
    was, in the 10th and 11th century, as highly populated as the entirety of
    England (according to the Cambridge Midieval History, Vol. 4, Pt II). But
    around it's immediate hinterland still existed a number of large
    towns/small citys in a "support"/exurb role. Thus, the existance of a
    "dominant" city does not preclude, as you suggested in an earlier post, the
    existance nearby of cities and towns of lesser status.
    >
    > I imagine that Prince Avan would portray himself as the protector of the
    > Imperial City. He would play up anxiety of dangers from other quarters
    > (the spider is 40 miles away, 2 days (?)) while soothing the city that he
    > would let no harm come to it, perhaps even while formenting (very subtly)
    > dangers.
    >
    heh; reminds me of one of the appelations a character of mine gave Avan
    when addressing him formally in communications; alternately "Protector of
    the City" and "Defender of the City" (among other effusive marks of
    praise). I agree totally with the point you make above. . .both in how he
    attempts to get himself viewed by the populace, and in his likely
    machinations. . .

    > Ultimatly I suspect the fall of the city, if it were to occure, would be
    > the result of the chamberlain making a tactical error.
    >
    True, but IMO the Chamberlain is very conservative in his tactics/strategy,
    the Dosire's being the guardians & heirs of a long tradition of
    stewardship. Yes, the Austrians were also fairly "conservative" at times;
    but they took risks in the search for hegemony. IMO, the Chamberlain does
    not take such risks, because he does not pursue similar goals. He's
    unlikely to side with any occupiers of Avanil who may have a (temporary,
    but apparenlty dominant) advantage in any one moment, at least not
    actively.

  8. #8
    c558382@showme.missouri.
    Guest

    reply to Anuire City population

    On Sat, 24 Jan 1998, James Ruhland wrote:

    > IMO, you mearly exchange one vulnerability for another

    IMO, conflict will always be with mankind because of the propesnity for
    exchanging one vulerablity for another, the grass always being greener on
    the other side of the fence.

    > In fact, I would argue
    > that the aquisition of the Terra Firma helped lead to Venice's decline.

    I would say Venice declined because the Ottomans were not as friendly to
    Italian trade as the Byzantines had been, and once the French came into
    Italy, the only solution the Italian powers could produce to remove them
    was to invite the Spanish in to kick them out. No city state could
    compete with the northern monarchies.

    > Point being who is preoccupied with Anuire the city? Only the best of the
    > best (such as thouse who read the FT). In other words, Anuire the City
    > draws into it's port and markets the best produce, the highest quality
    > goods, etc, from all over Cerilia.

    The Imperial capital I have the most experience with is Vienna, which was
    nothing more than a court city with aristocrats and bureaucrats aplenty,
    but little trade or industry. That combined with the fact that I presumed
    a Rome-like City of Anuire, has led me to invision the City in that mold.

    > the existance of a "dominant" city does not preclude, as you suggested
    > in an earlier post, the existance nearby of cities and towns of lesser
    > status.

    If I suggested such, I did not mean to. My desire was to suggest that in
    the arena of urban cometition, the capital might be inferior to hier
    neighbors. I would state strongly that the existance of a city requires
    nearby towns of lessor status. I might define a town as an entity which
    lives off the resources of its hinterland, but prospers off the
    interaction with other towns. The more interaction, the more money and
    people the town can attract.

    Kenneth Gauck
    c558382@showme.missouri.edu

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