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  1. #1
    c558382@showme.missouri.
    Guest

    circular vassalage

    Here's an interesting find. In the fourteenth century, the Count of
    Burgundy was overlord to the Prince de Bourg and the Prince de Louhans.

    Truth is stranger than fiction.

    Kenneth Gauck
    c558382@showme.missouri.edu

  2. #2
    E Gray
    Guest

    circular vassalage

    - -----Original Message-----
    From: c558382@showme.missouri.edu
    To: birthright@MPGN.COM
    Date: Tuesday, January 20, 1998 6:01 PM
    Subject: [BIRTHRIGHT] - circular vassalage


    >Here's an interesting find. In the fourteenth century, the Count of
    >Burgundy was overlord to the Prince de Bourg and the Prince de Louhans.


    Prince does not always mean "son and heir of the king" and considering
    how Germany was in the 1300s, I don't doubt it.

  3. #3
    c558382@showme.missouri.
    Guest

    circular vassalage

    On Wed, 21 Jan 1998, E Gray wrote:

    > Prince does not always mean "son and heir of the king" and considering
    > how Germany was in the 1300s, I don't doubt it.

    There are three meanings of the word prince. 1) Soveriegn Prince, auf
    deutch, es ist Furst; 2) a Prince who is not soverign, es ist Prinz, auf
    deutch; and 3) son and heir of a king. However, in Germany, the son and
    heir of the *Emperor* was the King of the Romans. The Emperor could, and
    did, reward individuals with grants of title. One example would be Prince
    Kaunitz, about whom I am writing my thesis. Kaunitz got no land, just a
    title. His estate was at Austerlitz (Napoleon slept in his apartments
    after the famous battle there). The family title was count of Austerlitz.

    Kenneth Gauck
    c558382@showme.missouri.edu

  4. #4
    E Gray
    Guest

    circular vassalage

    - -----Original Message-----
    From: c558382@showme.missouri.edu
    To: birthright@MPGN.COM
    Date: Tuesday, January 20, 1998 7:19 PM
    Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - circular vassalage


    >
    >On Wed, 21 Jan 1998, E Gray wrote:
    >
    >> Prince does not always mean "son and heir of the king" and considering
    >> how Germany was in the 1300s, I don't doubt it.
    >
    >There are three meanings of the word prince

    Actually, it's five.

    1. A nonreigning member of a royal family
    (Prince Andrew? )

    2. A male monarch or sovereign
    (Certain Italian Provinces like Capua)

    3. The son of a sovereign, or of a son of sovereign
    (Prince Charles, Henry, William)

    4. A simple Noble Title, much like Duke or Count.
    (Granted in the Holy Roman Empire and Prussia)

    5. The Ruler of a Small State
    (The prince of Monaco)

    And there's the use of terms like Merchant Prince or
    Prince of Industry..

    >The Emperor could, and did, reward individuals with
    >grants of title.

    I'm sure he wasn't the only one able to do so...

  5. #5
    c558382@showme.missouri.
    Guest

    circular vassalage

    E Gray, your cases 1 and 3 are the same, as are cases 2 and 5. Case 1)
    Andrew is only a prince in the sence that he is son of Queen E. Should
    Charles succeed, he will only be the Duke of York, and the only princes in
    Britain will be William and Harry. Case 2) A male monarch & ruler of a
    small state do not differ in practice.

    There's a good web page on this, _A Glossary of European Noble, Princely,
    Royal, and Imperial Titles_, its at
    http://econ10.econ.jhu.edu/heraldry/topics/odegard/titlefaq.htm
    There is a 20 pg document that is very useful.

    Kenneth Gauck
    c558382@showme.missouri.edu

    On Wed, 21 Jan 1998, E Gray wrote:

    > Actually, it's five.
    >
    > 1. A nonreigning member of a royal family
    > (Prince Andrew? )
    >
    > 2. A male monarch or sovereign
    > (Certain Italian Provinces like Capua)
    >
    > 3. The son of a sovereign, or of a son of sovereign
    > (Prince Charles, Henry, William)
    >
    > 4. A simple Noble Title, much like Duke or Count.
    > (Granted in the Holy Roman Empire and Prussia)
    >
    > 5. The Ruler of a Small State
    > (The prince of Monaco)
    >
    > And there's the use of terms like Merchant Prince or
    > Prince of Industry..
    >
    > >The Emperor could, and did, reward individuals with
    > >grants of title.
    >
    > I'm sure he wasn't the only one able to do so...
    >
    >
    > ************************************************** *************************
    > > 'unsubscribe birthright' as the body of the message.
    >

  6. #6
    E Gray
    Guest

    circular vassalage

    - -----Original Message-----
    From: c558382@showme.missouri.edu
    To: birthright@MPGN.COM
    Date: Tuesday, January 20, 1998 11:20 PM
    Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - circular vassalage


    > your cases 1 and 3 are the same, as are cases 2 and 5. Case 1)
    >Andrew is only a prince in the sence that he is son of Queen E.

    Not really, perhaps the use of Andrew was a bad example, but as I don't
    know too much about Royalty, I couldn't think of anything better..or added
    the statement "who is heir to the throne" to the end of 3.

    > Should Charles succeed, he will only be the Duke of York, and the
    >only princes in Britain will be William and Harry.

    Maybe we should ask someone in alt.talk.royalty about that, I thought
    Andrew would always be referred to as Prince Andrew...but I'm no
    expert, just using my dictionary and eyclopedia..

    >Case 2) A male monarch & ruler of a small state do not differ in practice.

    I'd say they do, as one doesn't follow from the other...and wasn't the
    husband of Queen Victoria called Prince something or other, not sure
    if that wasn't a pre-nuptial title though..


    >There's a good web page on this, _A Glossary of European Noble, Princely,
    >Royal, and Imperial Titles_, its at
    >http://econ10.econ.jhu.edu/heraldry/topics/odegard/titlefaq.htm
    >There is a 20 pg document that is very useful.


    Couldn't access the site, and 20 pages is really too extensive, I'm not
    particulary
    interested in the aspects of Nobility, and in any case this is really not
    related to the
    SubjectLine anymore, as the princes in your original statement were not
    above
    the Count of whatchamacallit..

  7. #7
    Neil Barnes
    Guest

    circular vassalage

    On Wed, 21 Jan 1998, E Gray wrote:
    > >On Wed, 21 Jan 1998, E Gray wrote:
    > >
    > >There are three meanings of the word prince
    >
    > Actually, it's five.
    >
    > 1. A nonreigning member of a royal family
    > (Prince Andrew? )

    Are you sure you don't mean Phil the Greek? Andrew is (still) the son of
    the soverign.

    > 2. A male monarch or sovereign
    > (Certain Italian Provinces like Capua)
    >
    > 3. The son of a sovereign, or of a son of sovereign
    > (Prince Charles, Henry, William)

    Don't forget that Charles is actually Prince of Wales - at one point
    Wales was actually intended as a training ground for future english
    Kings to make their Mistakes in :).

    neil

  8. #8
    Trizt
    Guest

    circular vassalage

    On 21-Jan-98, E Gray (grayhome@Sprintmail.com) wrote about Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] -
    circular vassalage:

    - ->I'd say they do, as one doesn't follow from the other...and wasn't the
    - ->husband of Queen Victoria called Prince something or other, not sure
    - ->if that wasn't a pre-nuptial title though..

    The husband of a ruling Gueen is usually titled as Prince, if he had been
    titled King, then it would imply that he would rule and not the Queen.

    //Trizt of Ward^RITE

    -

  9. #9
    Neil Barnes
    Guest

    circular vassalage

    On Mon, 26 Jan 1998, Trizt wrote:
    > The husband of a ruling Queen is usually titled as Prince, if he had
    > been
    > titled King, then it would imply that he would rule and not the Queen.

    I believe this has changed since the time of Mary & Elizabeth I -
    neither of whom married because it would mean that their husbands would
    rule England. Although I understand Mary was considering marrying the
    King of Spain.

    I'm not sure what the case was with William & Mary. She was the heir,
    but I'm not sure who was reignig moarch. They were invited in by the
    nobility, so it probably did't make much difference.

    Queen Anne was married IFIRC, and Victoria and Liz are both monarchs,
    rather than being subserviat to their husbands.

    neil

  10. #10
    Brenda L Santer
    Guest

    circular vassalage

    >On Mon, 26 Jan 1998, Trizt wrote:
    >> The husband of a ruling Queen is usually titled as Prince, if he had
    >> been
    >> titled King, then it would imply that he would rule and not the Queen.
    >
    >I believe this has changed since the time of Mary & Elizabeth I -
    >neither of whom married because it would mean that their husbands would
    >rule England. Although I understand Mary was considering marrying the
    >King of Spain.
    >

    Actually Mary was married to Philip II of Spain for a number of years
    before the marriage ended. He convinced her to enter into a war against
    France.

    In the Birthright campaign I run, there are several instances or female
    regents who have married and we have always purposely given the husband a
    title that makes it clear that she is the regent. Otherwise, when husband
    and wife have titles of the same degree such as King and Queen, Count and
    Countess, etc., th eautomatic assumption tends ot be that he is the ruler
    while she is "only" the spouse.

    ****************************************
    Brenda Santer:

    mailto:bsanter@sk.sympatico.ca
    ****************************************

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