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Thread: Imperial City supplement?
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01-19-1998, 05:27 PM #1DKEvermoreGuest
Imperial City supplement?
In a message dated 1/18/98 6:55:46 PM, you wrote:
>to watch those who publicly aspire to it. If anyone is interested in the
>full write-up of the Heralds let me know and I'll post it here (as soon as
I'm
>done!).
I think you have an intriguing idea here. Please do post it!
Thanks!
DKE
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01-20-1998, 04:56 AM #2
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Imperial City supplement?
I'd like to see more on the Imperial City, sure. Also on the Heraldic
College, although I disagree that bards are underpowered. The skald in my
Giantdowns game is doing just fine, using bagpipe tapes on my stereo during
battles.
About the population, I doubt that many guilders would favor a move like
cutting off the food trade to the City. Any number of other guilders who
don't have connections in would fall all over themselves to get into that
market. I really can't see any combination of all of the traders in Southern
Anuire banding together long enough to make an embargo stick, without one of
them breaking it for huge profits (just how much could you charge for the
first three shiploads of grain?). Thus, I can't see the population having a
real ceiling.
For a real-world comparison, just look at the US business community
whenever Congress starts thining about trade sanctions vs. China-- nobody
wants to cut themselves off from that "potential market of 1 billion
customers." I'm playing Brosengae/Brosen Royal Guild in a PBEM game, and I
would love for some of my rivals to cease trading with The City-- more for me!
Lee.
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01-20-1998, 05:49 AM #3Daniel McSorleyGuest
Imperial City supplement?
> About the population, I doubt that many guilders would favor a move
like
>cutting off the food trade to the City. Any number of other guilders who
>don't have connections in would fall all over themselves to get into that
>market. I really can't see any combination of all of the traders in
Southern
>Anuire banding together long enough to make an embargo stick, without one
of
>them breaking it for huge profits (just how much could you charge for the
>first three shiploads of grain?). Thus, I can't see the population
having a
>real ceiling.
I wanted to step in and throw my 2 GB into the debate. I have to agree
with Lee, there is no way any embargo could be placed on the Imperial City.
It is too much of a prize for any to try to harm it. It was mentioned that
it relies on Diemed and Avanil for its food supply. Should they decide to
cut it off, there is any number of potential rivals, Ghoere, Boeruine,
Alamie, etc. who would lift it by force, for the chance to prove their
worthiness to the Chamberlain, Dosiere. He wouldn't neccessarily bestow the
trone upon them immediately, but he would make sure that the offending
regent, and his descendants had no chance to ever claim the throne. That
man wields an enormous amount of power, just by suggesting that he might
favor a cantidate, he could easily raise an army to aid him and the people
of the city.
Daniel McSorley
mcsorley.1@osu.edu
Age:18, RPing experience: 10 years
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01-20-1998, 08:28 AM #4Brian StonerGuest
Imperial City supplement?
Other stuff to consider about the Imperial City: Rome may have had only 40,000
during the medieval period, but it was sacked with the fall of the Empire.
Also, Byzantium existed as a large cosmopolitan center throughout the medieval
period (until it fell to the Turks near the end of the period), and yet had a
rather small Empire. It survived almost exclusively on trade.
Brian
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01-21-1998, 04:45 PM #5Neil BarnesGuest
Imperial City supplement?
On Tue, 20 Jan 1998, Brian Stoner wrote:
> Other stuff to consider about the Imperial City: Rome may have had only 40,000
> during the medieval period, but it was sacked with the fall of the Empire.
> Also, Byzantium existed as a large cosmopolitan center throughout the medieval
> period (until it fell to the Turks near the end of the period), and yet had a
> rather small Empire. It survived almost exclusively on trade.
The fact that the Imperial City is a free city probably means it
attracts a lot of people from across Anuire, who are hiding from
something or other in their past.
Peasants used to flee to towns if their masters were too harsh, and if
they lived there for a year became free citizens of the town. (Anyone
with the historical data to prove that this never really happened?) The
Imperial city might act something like that within the society of the
continent. If you want to hide, it's the best place to go.
neil
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01-21-1998, 05:46 PM #6GeniverGuest
Imperial City supplement?
Neil Barnes wrote:
>
> Peasants used to flee to towns if their masters were too harsh, and if
> they lived there for a year became free citizens of the town. (Anyone
> with the historical data to prove that this never really happened?) The
> Imperial city might act something like that within the society of the
> continent. If you want to hide, it's the best place to go.
>
In the U.S., the fugitive slave law did not have a one year statue of
limitations, and the District of Columbia was not a sanctuary.
Illegal immigrants do not qualify for a green card after one year, even
in D.C. In fact, they tend to be exploited by "masters" here almost as
harshly as at home.
In theory, the best place to hide is in a crowd. In practice, that's the
first place the authorities look. Sometimes they even round up the
innocent along with the guilty.
The best place to run to is a place with no extradition agreement with
your former homeland.
Things could have been different long ago. I think the law sided with
the taxpayers against the peasents.
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01-21-1998, 06:28 PM #7James RuhlandGuest
Imperial City supplement?
Geniver's response to Neil Barne, Re pesant freedom after fleeing to an
urbs, snipped;
> >
> In the U.S., the fugitive slave law did not have a one year statue of
> limitations, and the District of Columbia was not a sanctuary.
>
Yes, but we're not talking the United States, we're talking midieval
tradition & laws. Everything I've read refering to the matter indicates
Neil is correct on the 'year and a day=freedom' thing; mainly, prolly,
'cause after that point it was fairly fruitless to try and recover the
pesant and put him back on the farm. So pragmatism led to a tradition,
which led to a de facto law.
Note that your "illegal imigrants" example actually confirms this view;
periodic amnestys etc are proposed and enacted, allowing thouse who entered
the US illegally before a certain date to claim legal residence &
citizenship, with the vow that "from now on, though, we're gonna crack down
on this kinda thing." IMO, much the same effect was prolly at work in the
Middle Ages.
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01-21-1998, 09:33 PM #8c558382@showme.missouri.Guest
Imperial City supplement?
On Wed, 21 Jan 1998, Neil Barnes wrote:
> The fact that the Imperial City is a free city probably means it
> attracts a lot of people from across Anuire, who are hiding from
> something or other in their past.
>
> Peasants used to flee to towns if their masters were too harsh, and if
> they lived there for a year became free citizens of the town. (Anyone
> with the historical data to prove that this never really happened?) The
> Imperial city might act something like that within the society of the
> continent. If you want to hide, it's the best place to go.
>
> neil
Its true that, historicaly, towns were a refuge from rural overpopulation
(harsh masters is anachronistic, today's labor movements wishes its the
customary protections of medieval peasants), but this was mostly the a
move from the frying pan into the fire. Not only were cities huge
consumers of population (high negative growth rate, compensated by fresh
young faces off the farm), but the citizenship of the the town was very
strictly limited to members of the guilds (burghers), so non-citizens
would be left only with dead-end jobs, which leaves them without rights.
It was a case of giving up your customary rights for an income. Whether
the inheritance law favors partable inheritance (divide the farm by all
children) or impartable inheritance (it all goes to the favorite, or first
child) too many surving children could mean no opportunities for a living
at home.
So basically, your right, Neil, but I would say more of the urban dwellers
are either long-standing citizens with guild membership, and a protected
trade; or they're desperate, poor farm boys looking to make ends meet.
Those with something to hide are the minority, but the interesting
minority, eh?
Kenneth Gauck
c558382@showme.missouri.edu
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01-21-1998, 09:43 PM #9c558382@showme.missouri.Guest
Imperial City supplement?
On Wed, 21 Jan 1998, James Ruhland wrote:
> Everything I've read refering to the matter indicates
> Neil is correct on the 'year and a day=freedom' thing; mainly, prolly,
> 'cause after that point it was fairly fruitless to try and recover the
> pesant and put him back on the farm. So pragmatism led to a tradition,
> which led to a de facto law.
>
Actually, landlords were happy to see peasants go into town as long as the
fields were being worked. If there was ample labor on the manor, the lord
would just as soon see the peasants move to a more economically productive
sphere.
The year and a day limit was not a freedom from refuge. It was a test of
economic viability. Peasants often left the fields in full view of the
lord, perhaps moving into his village and taking up work in one of his
industrial enterprises. The concern was, you have a place on the land;
before we sever that tie, and those rights, demonstrate that you are able
to earn a living away from the land. If you can do it for a year and a
day, great. If not, we *cannot* have paupers (read bandits) wandering
around with no fixed place to work. Without police, the only security
against crime was the absence of strangers. People who were not tied down
to a community, a profession, membership of some kind, were frightening.
You had to move from one fixed place to another- no free floating person.
Kenneth Gauck
c558382@showme.missouri.edu
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01-27-1998, 03:12 PM #10Neil BarnesGuest
Imperial City supplement?
On Wed, 21 Jan 1998, Geniver wrote:
> Neil Barnes wrote:
> >
> > Peasants used to flee to towns if their masters were too harsh, and if
> > they lived there for a year became free citizens of the town. (Anyone
> > with the historical data to prove that this never really happened?) The
> > Imperial city might act something like that within the society of the
> > continent. If you want to hide, it's the best place to go.
>
> In the U.S., the fugitive slave law did not have a one year statue of
> limitations, and the District of Columbia was not a sanctuary.
Slavery, is of course, illegal in Anuire, although not in Mieres, and
possibly Suiriene (as former colonies).
> In theory, the best place to hide is in a crowd. In practice, that's the
> first place the authorities look. Sometimes they even round up the
> innocent along with the guilty.
Ah, but the Imperial City of Anuire is independant of any hypothetical
authorities which might be tracking down an individual fugitive.
Furthermore, without modern technology, identifying people becomes a lot
more difficult. No photographs, no ID checks, no telephones, no computer
records.
Just consider that even famous individuals such as regents could fade
into anonymity with just an assumed name, a change of clothes, ad
possibly a change of hair colour (somethig that one of my current
schemes relies upon. :).
neil
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