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  1. #1
    DKEvermore
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    Imperial City supplement?

    In a message dated 1/18/98 6:55:46 PM, you wrote:

    >to watch those who publicly aspire to it. If anyone is interested in the
    >full write-up of the Heralds let me know and I'll post it here (as soon as
    I'm
    >done!).

    I think you have an intriguing idea here. Please do post it!

    Thanks!
    DKE

  2. #2
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    Imperial City supplement?

    I'd like to see more on the Imperial City, sure. Also on the Heraldic
    College, although I disagree that bards are underpowered. The skald in my
    Giantdowns game is doing just fine, using bagpipe tapes on my stereo during
    battles.
    About the population, I doubt that many guilders would favor a move like
    cutting off the food trade to the City. Any number of other guilders who
    don't have connections in would fall all over themselves to get into that
    market. I really can't see any combination of all of the traders in Southern
    Anuire banding together long enough to make an embargo stick, without one of
    them breaking it for huge profits (just how much could you charge for the
    first three shiploads of grain?). Thus, I can't see the population having a
    real ceiling.
    For a real-world comparison, just look at the US business community
    whenever Congress starts thining about trade sanctions vs. China-- nobody
    wants to cut themselves off from that "potential market of 1 billion
    customers." I'm playing Brosengae/Brosen Royal Guild in a PBEM game, and I
    would love for some of my rivals to cease trading with The City-- more for me!

    Lee.

  3. #3
    Daniel McSorley
    Guest

    Imperial City supplement?

    > About the population, I doubt that many guilders would favor a move
    like
    >cutting off the food trade to the City. Any number of other guilders who
    >don't have connections in would fall all over themselves to get into that
    >market. I really can't see any combination of all of the traders in
    Southern
    >Anuire banding together long enough to make an embargo stick, without one
    of
    >them breaking it for huge profits (just how much could you charge for the
    >first three shiploads of grain?). Thus, I can't see the population
    having a
    >real ceiling.
    I wanted to step in and throw my 2 GB into the debate. I have to agree
    with Lee, there is no way any embargo could be placed on the Imperial City.
    It is too much of a prize for any to try to harm it. It was mentioned that
    it relies on Diemed and Avanil for its food supply. Should they decide to
    cut it off, there is any number of potential rivals, Ghoere, Boeruine,
    Alamie, etc. who would lift it by force, for the chance to prove their
    worthiness to the Chamberlain, Dosiere. He wouldn't neccessarily bestow the
    trone upon them immediately, but he would make sure that the offending
    regent, and his descendants had no chance to ever claim the throne. That
    man wields an enormous amount of power, just by suggesting that he might
    favor a cantidate, he could easily raise an army to aid him and the people
    of the city.

    Daniel McSorley
    mcsorley.1@osu.edu
    Age:18, RPing experience: 10 years

  4. #4
    Brian Stoner
    Guest

    Imperial City supplement?

    Other stuff to consider about the Imperial City: Rome may have had only 40,000
    during the medieval period, but it was sacked with the fall of the Empire.
    Also, Byzantium existed as a large cosmopolitan center throughout the medieval
    period (until it fell to the Turks near the end of the period), and yet had a
    rather small Empire. It survived almost exclusively on trade.

    Brian

  5. #5
    Neil Barnes
    Guest

    Imperial City supplement?

    On Tue, 20 Jan 1998, Brian Stoner wrote:

    > Other stuff to consider about the Imperial City: Rome may have had only 40,000
    > during the medieval period, but it was sacked with the fall of the Empire.
    > Also, Byzantium existed as a large cosmopolitan center throughout the medieval
    > period (until it fell to the Turks near the end of the period), and yet had a
    > rather small Empire. It survived almost exclusively on trade.

    The fact that the Imperial City is a free city probably means it
    attracts a lot of people from across Anuire, who are hiding from
    something or other in their past.

    Peasants used to flee to towns if their masters were too harsh, and if
    they lived there for a year became free citizens of the town. (Anyone
    with the historical data to prove that this never really happened?) The
    Imperial city might act something like that within the society of the
    continent. If you want to hide, it's the best place to go.

    neil

  6. #6
    Geniver
    Guest

    Imperial City supplement?

    Neil Barnes wrote:
    >
    > Peasants used to flee to towns if their masters were too harsh, and if
    > they lived there for a year became free citizens of the town. (Anyone
    > with the historical data to prove that this never really happened?) The
    > Imperial city might act something like that within the society of the
    > continent. If you want to hide, it's the best place to go.
    >
    In the U.S., the fugitive slave law did not have a one year statue of
    limitations, and the District of Columbia was not a sanctuary.

    Illegal immigrants do not qualify for a green card after one year, even
    in D.C. In fact, they tend to be exploited by "masters" here almost as
    harshly as at home.

    In theory, the best place to hide is in a crowd. In practice, that's the
    first place the authorities look. Sometimes they even round up the
    innocent along with the guilty.

    The best place to run to is a place with no extradition agreement with
    your former homeland.

    Things could have been different long ago. I think the law sided with
    the taxpayers against the peasents.

  7. #7
    James Ruhland
    Guest

    Imperial City supplement?

    Geniver's response to Neil Barne, Re pesant freedom after fleeing to an
    urbs, snipped;
    > >
    > In the U.S., the fugitive slave law did not have a one year statue of
    > limitations, and the District of Columbia was not a sanctuary.
    >
    Yes, but we're not talking the United States, we're talking midieval
    tradition & laws. Everything I've read refering to the matter indicates
    Neil is correct on the 'year and a day=freedom' thing; mainly, prolly,
    'cause after that point it was fairly fruitless to try and recover the
    pesant and put him back on the farm. So pragmatism led to a tradition,
    which led to a de facto law.
    Note that your "illegal imigrants" example actually confirms this view;
    periodic amnestys etc are proposed and enacted, allowing thouse who entered
    the US illegally before a certain date to claim legal residence &
    citizenship, with the vow that "from now on, though, we're gonna crack down
    on this kinda thing." IMO, much the same effect was prolly at work in the
    Middle Ages.

  8. #8
    c558382@showme.missouri.
    Guest

    Imperial City supplement?

    On Wed, 21 Jan 1998, Neil Barnes wrote:
    > The fact that the Imperial City is a free city probably means it
    > attracts a lot of people from across Anuire, who are hiding from
    > something or other in their past.
    >
    > Peasants used to flee to towns if their masters were too harsh, and if
    > they lived there for a year became free citizens of the town. (Anyone
    > with the historical data to prove that this never really happened?) The
    > Imperial city might act something like that within the society of the
    > continent. If you want to hide, it's the best place to go.
    >
    > neil

    Its true that, historicaly, towns were a refuge from rural overpopulation
    (harsh masters is anachronistic, today's labor movements wishes its the
    customary protections of medieval peasants), but this was mostly the a
    move from the frying pan into the fire. Not only were cities huge
    consumers of population (high negative growth rate, compensated by fresh
    young faces off the farm), but the citizenship of the the town was very
    strictly limited to members of the guilds (burghers), so non-citizens
    would be left only with dead-end jobs, which leaves them without rights.
    It was a case of giving up your customary rights for an income. Whether
    the inheritance law favors partable inheritance (divide the farm by all
    children) or impartable inheritance (it all goes to the favorite, or first
    child) too many surving children could mean no opportunities for a living
    at home.

    So basically, your right, Neil, but I would say more of the urban dwellers
    are either long-standing citizens with guild membership, and a protected
    trade; or they're desperate, poor farm boys looking to make ends meet.
    Those with something to hide are the minority, but the interesting
    minority, eh?

    Kenneth Gauck
    c558382@showme.missouri.edu

  9. #9
    c558382@showme.missouri.
    Guest

    Imperial City supplement?

    On Wed, 21 Jan 1998, James Ruhland wrote:

    > Everything I've read refering to the matter indicates
    > Neil is correct on the 'year and a day=freedom' thing; mainly, prolly,
    > 'cause after that point it was fairly fruitless to try and recover the
    > pesant and put him back on the farm. So pragmatism led to a tradition,
    > which led to a de facto law.
    >
    Actually, landlords were happy to see peasants go into town as long as the
    fields were being worked. If there was ample labor on the manor, the lord
    would just as soon see the peasants move to a more economically productive
    sphere.

    The year and a day limit was not a freedom from refuge. It was a test of
    economic viability. Peasants often left the fields in full view of the
    lord, perhaps moving into his village and taking up work in one of his
    industrial enterprises. The concern was, you have a place on the land;
    before we sever that tie, and those rights, demonstrate that you are able
    to earn a living away from the land. If you can do it for a year and a
    day, great. If not, we *cannot* have paupers (read bandits) wandering
    around with no fixed place to work. Without police, the only security
    against crime was the absence of strangers. People who were not tied down
    to a community, a profession, membership of some kind, were frightening.
    You had to move from one fixed place to another- no free floating person.

    Kenneth Gauck
    c558382@showme.missouri.edu

  10. #10
    Neil Barnes
    Guest

    Imperial City supplement?

    On Wed, 21 Jan 1998, Geniver wrote:
    > Neil Barnes wrote:
    > >
    > > Peasants used to flee to towns if their masters were too harsh, and if
    > > they lived there for a year became free citizens of the town. (Anyone
    > > with the historical data to prove that this never really happened?) The
    > > Imperial city might act something like that within the society of the
    > > continent. If you want to hide, it's the best place to go.
    >
    > In the U.S., the fugitive slave law did not have a one year statue of
    > limitations, and the District of Columbia was not a sanctuary.

    Slavery, is of course, illegal in Anuire, although not in Mieres, and
    possibly Suiriene (as former colonies).

    > In theory, the best place to hide is in a crowd. In practice, that's the
    > first place the authorities look. Sometimes they even round up the
    > innocent along with the guilty.

    Ah, but the Imperial City of Anuire is independant of any hypothetical
    authorities which might be tracking down an individual fugitive.
    Furthermore, without modern technology, identifying people becomes a lot
    more difficult. No photographs, no ID checks, no telephones, no computer
    records.

    Just consider that even famous individuals such as regents could fade
    into anonymity with just an assumed name, a change of clothes, ad
    possibly a change of hair colour (somethig that one of my current
    schemes relies upon. :).

    neil

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