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Thread: Population of the Imperial City
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01-17-1998, 05:16 PM #1James RuhlandGuest
Population of the Imperial City
>
> But, does anyone know how large the Imperial City is supposed to be? I
> know it has a rating of 10/0, but what is the pop, how many halflings,
> etc. Any info would be appreciated.
>
Of course our TSR folk (Ed? Carrie? Beuller? Beuller? Beuller?) would be
best able to answer this q. But acording to the rulebook, p.34, provinces
with a level of 7 or more can have a population "as high as 100,000
people." So I'd say *at least* 100,000. As for how many halflings, I'd say
that no more than 1-2 percent of the population would be halfling (since
they're fairly uncommon). But that still means that possibly 2,000 people
would be halflings, forming a substantial community (if you chose to
concentrate them in a "burough"). There'd also be a substantial "transient"
population (traders and travellers) in the city at any one time (say, 20-25
thousand), and a fair portion of that could be halflings (say 5%, a greater
percentage than among the "resident" population, but in effect doubling the
number in town at any one time.) (if you're running a "halfling oriented"
campaign, these transients could connect the local population to a vast
halfling-run information network, with the resident halflings operating a
kind of "information clearing house" that passes important stuff around and
pieces together semingly unrelated data to form a picture of what's going
on throughout Cerilia. . .just an idea.)
As to other folk, few elves (less than 1 percent, for sure), about 1%
half-elves, 2% Dwarves (?), some goblins (1-2%), Gnolls, and "Other". Close
to 90% of the population would be human. Significant Brecht and Khinasi
communities (being trader folk), with a scattering of people from all over
Cerilia (making it the most cosmopolitan place in the continent.) Still,
circa 75% of the population would be Anurian. They'd have various reactions
to having foreigners among them (from developing open, eclectic tastes, to
rioting and blaming outlanders for every misfortune. . .and probably
fluctuating back and forth between such extremes: look at them as a fickle,
spoiled people. Living in the Imperial City has kept them immune from the
wars that despoiled the rest of Anuire, and they'd be proud of their
Imperial heritage and citizenship in the greatest city in Cerilia.)
Anyhow, that's just my opinion.
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01-19-1998, 11:46 PM #2c558382@showme.missouri.Guest
Population of the Imperial City
I think, more like Rome, the old Imperial capital is largely deserted, a
mere shadow of its former self. Rome fell from a million to 30,000 souls.
While the BR materials suggest its not an inconsequencial backwater, that
may be because, like Rome, its a collection point for wealth from across
Anuire. Such institutions as the Bardic College might still bring all
kinds of money into the City of Anuire. How much? Table 17 (p. 43)
suggests 2d8 GB. That's hardly excessive.
Why can't the ancient capital have 400,000 people? Well where is all that
food comming from? Using the data from Ply Trade, a fair income is 10d6
gp per action, or an average of 35 gp per action, or 140-150 gp per year.
Using 15th century data (before the price of food shot up), we find
citizens of such a city should pay as much as 20 gp per person
(based on the Ply Trade information) on grain in order to live meanly.
Thats 8,000,000 gp for imported grain! Or, 4000 GB. City's income aint
*that* hot. Using my calculations from the food provided by a 6 mile
hex, its 50 hexes devoted to the City. That's not outrageous, even by
medieval standards, but its does represents almost entirely foriegn food.
The shere quantity is beyond the means of a city which does not control
its hinterland.
London had a population of 50,000 plus. The great cities of Italy (which
lived and died over control of thier hinterland) achived 100,000. If we
scale our ambitions back a bit, we seen that a city of 40,000 is quite
easy to feed. 400,000 almost impossible without the guaranteed good will
of Avanil and Diemed, not to mention Prince's Pride, Brosen Royal Guild,
Maesil Shippers, Heartlands Outfitters, and Southern Anuire Shipping.
They all have the power to double the price of grain by withholding
supplies. That would make the Chamberlain a pawn. Indeed the city would
be unable to resist the power which could guaranty its food supply.
Kenneth Gauck
c558382@showme.missouri.edu
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01-19-1998, 11:47 PM #3c558382@showme.missouri.Guest
Population of the Imperial City
I think, more like Rome, the old Imperial capital is largely deserted, a
mere shadow of its former self. Rome fell from a million to 30,000 souls.
While the BR materials suggest its not an inconsequencial backwater, that
may be because, like Rome, its a collection point for wealth from across
Anuire. Such institutions as the Bardic College might still bring all
kinds of money into the City of Anuire. How much? Table 17 (p. 43)
suggests 2d8 GB. That's hardly excessive.
Why can't the ancient capital have 400,000 people? Well where is all that
food comming from? Using the data from Ply Trade, a fair income is 10d6
gp per action, or an average of 35 gp per action, or 140-150 gp per year.
Using 15th century data (before the price of food shot up), we find
citizens of such a city should pay as much as 20 gp per person
(based on the Ply Trade information) on grain in order to live meanly.
Thats 8,000,000 gp for imported grain! Or, 4000 GB. City's income aint
*that* hot. Using my calculations from the food provided by a 6 mile
hex, its 50 hexes devoted to the City. That's not outrageous, even by
medieval standards, but its does represents almost entirely foriegn food.
The shere quantity is beyond the means of a city which does not control
its hinterland.
London had a population of 50,000 plus. The great cities of Italy (which
lived and died over control of thier hinterland) achived 100,000. If we
scale our ambitions back a bit, we seen that a city of 40,000 is quite
easy to feed. 400,000 almost impossible without the guaranteed good will
of Avanil and Diemed, not to mention Prince's Pride, Brosen Royal Guild,
Maesil Shippers, Heartlands Outfitters, and Southern Anuire Shipping.
They all have the power to double the price of grain by withholding
supplies. That would make the Chamberlain a pawn. Indeed the city would
be unable to resist the power which could guaranty its food supply.
Kenneth Gauck
c558382@showme.missouri.edu
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01-20-1998, 12:36 AM #4E GrayGuest
Population of the Imperial City
- -----Original Message-----
From: c558382@showme.missouri.edu
To: James Ruhland
Date: Monday, January 19, 1998 9:54 AM
Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Population of the Imperial City
>I think, more like Rome, the old Imperial capital is largely deserted, a
>mere shadow of its former self. Rome fell from a million to 30,000 souls.
True....and 1 1/2 to 2 million wouldn't be impossilbe estimates for Rome
at its height either..
>Why can't the ancient capital have 400,000 people? Well where is all that
>food comming from?
Mana from heaven, where else? }:+)
>Using 15th century data (before the price of food shot up), we find
>citizens of such a city should pay as much as 20 gp per person
Not sure this is really all that fair an estimate....what one pays for food
at McDonald's isn't the same as one pays at the Supermarket, which
is more than what one pays at the Distributor....so at least some of this
money will still be floating in the city itself.....and of course that's
assuming
all of the city's population has nothing to do with raising their own food..
>(based on the Ply Trade information) on grain in order to live meanly.
>Thats 8,000,000 gp for imported grain! Or, 4000 GB. City's income aint
>*that* hot.
That's true...
>Using my calculations from the food provided by a 6 mile
>hex, its 50 hexes devoted to the City. That's not outrageous, even by
>medieval standards, but its does represents almost entirely foriegn food.
Perhaps like the Romans, investment in food production increasements
was done in the Hey day of the Empire, and closer at hand as no Libya
or Egypt was available to ship Grain
>The shere quantity is beyond the means of a city which does not control
>its hinterland.
Possibly...
> If we scale our ambitions back a bit, we seen that a city of 40,000 is
quite
>easy to feed.
Yes, and perhaps TSR was just a little overeager to have Impcit be among
the best of the best..
>They all have the power to double the price of grain by withholding
>supplies. That would make the Chamberlain a pawn. Indeed the city would
>be unable to resist the power which could guaranty its food supply.
Unless there is something the Chamberlain controls that would threaten those
who supply the city with food, or they have some reason to want to keep
feeding the city.....all in all, this merely adds potential to a game..
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01-20-1998, 01:02 AM #5Brian StonerGuest
Population of the Imperial City
c558382@showme.missouri.edu wrote:
> If we
> scale our ambitions back a bit, we seen that a city of 40,000 is quite
> easy to feed. 400,000 almost impossible without the guaranteed good will
> of Avanil and Diemed, not to mention Prince's Pride, Brosen Royal Guild,
> Maesil Shippers, Heartlands Outfitters, and Southern Anuire Shipping.
> They all have the power to double the price of grain by withholding
> supplies. That would make the Chamberlain a pawn. Indeed the city would
> be unable to resist the power which could guaranty its food supply.
>
But then, if Prince Avan wants to keep in the Chamberlain's good graces (in
hopes of being proclaimed Emperor), he may want to ensure that the City is
fed. He could try to force the Chamberlain's hand...but the other regents of
Anuire wouldn't like that much. And even Avan doesn't want to upset the
balance that way--to do so would unravel all his plans and cost him everything.
(Not to mention that a level of 10 for the city implies a large population,
although it isn't necessarily so...)
Brian
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01-20-1998, 01:03 AM #6James RuhlandGuest
Population of the Imperial City
It should be noted, however, that it is not technically imposible for a
midieval city to have such a high population, if it is located near good
maritime transportation lanes (wide rivers or the ocean). Constantinople,
Cordova, and Baghdad (in Europe and the Mid East) all had populations equal
or greater than 400,000. Various Chinese cities, such as Chang'an, had even
higher populations. As for your economic data, translating the gold-rich
fantasy world figures to real-world equivilents is a notoriously dificult
task.
I'll stick with my initial estimate, circa 100,000 (or the aproximate
population of late-midieval Venice, Florence, and Genoa) people. And I'm
more than willing to defend the 400,000 figure, as noted above.
>
> I think, more like Rome, the old Imperial capital is largely deserted, a
> mere shadow of its former self. Rome fell from a million to 30,000
souls.
> While the BR materials suggest its not an inconsequencial backwater, that
> may be because, like Rome, its a collection point for wealth from across
> Anuire. Such institutions as the Bardic College might still bring all
> kinds of money into the City of Anuire. How much? Table 17 (p. 43)
> suggests 2d8 GB. That's hardly excessive.
>
> Why can't the ancient capital have 400,000 people? Well where is all
that
> food comming from? Using the data from Ply Trade, a fair income is 10d6
> gp per action, or an average of 35 gp per action, or 140-150 gp per year.
> Using 15th century data (before the price of food shot up), we find
> citizens of such a city should pay as much as 20 gp per person
> (based on the Ply Trade information) on grain in order to live meanly.
> Thats 8,000,000 gp for imported grain! Or, 4000 GB. City's income aint
> *that* hot. Using my calculations from the food provided by a 6 mile
> hex, its 50 hexes devoted to the City. That's not outrageous, even by
> medieval standards, but its does represents almost entirely foriegn food.
> The shere quantity is beyond the means of a city which does not control
> its hinterland.
>
> London had a population of 50,000 plus. The great cities of Italy (which
> lived and died over control of thier hinterland) achived 100,000. If we
> scale our ambitions back a bit, we seen that a city of 40,000 is quite
> easy to feed. 400,000 almost impossible without the guaranteed good will
> of Avanil and Diemed, not to mention Prince's Pride, Brosen Royal Guild,
> Maesil Shippers, Heartlands Outfitters, and Southern Anuire Shipping.
> They all have the power to double the price of grain by withholding
> supplies. That would make the Chamberlain a pawn. Indeed the city would
> be unable to resist the power which could guaranty its food supply.
>
> Kenneth Gauck
> c558382@showme.missouri.edu
>
>
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01-20-1998, 01:54 PM #7DKEvermoreGuest
Population of the Imperial City
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01-21-1998, 04:27 PM #8Neil BarnesGuest
Population of the Imperial City
On Mon, 19 Jan 1998, E Gray wrote:
> >They all have the power to double the price of grain by withholding
> >supplies. That would make the Chamberlain a pawn. Indeed the city would
> >be unable to resist the power which could guaranty its food supply.
>
> Unless there is something the Chamberlain controls that would threaten those
> who supply the city with food, or they have some reason to want to keep
> feeding the city.....all in all, this merely adds potential to a game..
But the Chamberlin rules the city - a +10 mod to those domain actions
(contest etc.) is pretty handy - there's little incentive for the
merchants to risk him screwing up their nice lucrative trade routes.
And as for the rulers - if you have any aspirations to become Emperor,
the Imperial City will be central to those dreams. Regardless of what
happens to legitimise you (conquer Anuire, kill Gorgon, rediscover
Roele's bloodline, whatever) it'll be Dosiere who formally recognises
you as Emperor. That's quite a plitical trump card.
neil
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