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  1. #11
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Raesene Andu@Apr 26 2004, 05:48 AM
    Another option I'm tossing about is limited sorcerers to just 9 realms spells, but allowing them to learn them automatically (after spending a domain action to master the spell).

    If instead you require a feat to learn realm spells then it could work, but again it wouldn't require 'research' to learn them. Also need to keep in mind that clerics/druids don't normally have to 'learn' their spells, similar to sorcerers. So, IMO, all character capable of casting realm spells should be handled the same way in this regard in order to not give an unfair advantage to any one (or more) spellcasting classes.
    What does this mean? Learning them automatically after spending a domain action to master them? It seems to me that it is no longer an automatic learning if they have to spend a domain action to master them.
    Duane Eggert

  2. #12
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Raesene Andu@Apr 26 2004, 05:48 AM
    Hence I guess that target is something that needs to be included. It is either a single province/holding or multiples ones and the number should be limited in some manner (either by caster level or requisite holding level (e.g., source level or temple level).
    I've added this to the bottom of the description...

    'This spell can only affect vessels that are docked in the province where it is cast and the caster may bless a maximum of 1 vessel/level.'

    This brings it into line with the Battle Bless and companion spells.

    By the way, with the spell descriptions I'm trying to go for 1 paragraph of flavour text, 1-2 of description of effects, then 1-2 or rules info and limitations. I also want to cut back on the size of the info at the start of the description (gold, regency, holding required, etc). Primarily to make it easier to read, but also to move away from linking realm spells to standard spells. I dropped target from the description because there are only 4 different target types for realm spells: provinces, holdings, units, or a regent(s). Normal spells have a miriad of different targets and areas of effect.
    For this very reason it is a good idea to include target in the front matter of the spell. It makes it easier for the user (i.e., player/DM) to find out what the spell affects quickly and then read the actual description to find out the details. Even epic spells wrok this way so there is really a good idea to keep the format similar regardless of the kind of spell (e.g., normal, epic, realm, etc.)
    Duane Eggert

  3. #13
    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
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    I am very interested in seeing the basic design format for realm spells. With such a template visible to all, we then have a solid framework for designing, editing, and revising (completely overhauling if necessary) new and existing realm spells.

    My default design pattern has been to assume that realm spells work like province- or unit-scale versions of regular spells (which the BRCS also did). With this sort of simple template available, it would be very easy for players and DM's to create almost any realm spell based on the existing magic system without having to come up with completely original ideas for them, which then require a whole lot of DM judgement as to how to assign power levels and requirements.

    Also, there are several good reasons to base realm spells on spell level instead of caster level:
    1. Certain feats and class abilities raise caster levels without raising actual levels of spells able to be cast. These characters would then get more powerful realm spells sooner then they might otherwise.
    2. Sorcerers get 2nd+ level spells one level later than wizards (at 4th level instead of 3rd). This is a built-in 3.x balancer that represents wizards' abilities to gain more potent spells slightly earlier than sorcerers. I don't see why this shouldn't apply to realm spells as well, as I think the sorcerers' intuitive approach to magic would give them a disadvantage in dealing with the mass-scale complexities of source holdings, ley lines, and realm spells (which are long-term ritual spells, after all - the sort of things that wizards and some clerics thrive on, and sorcerers generally avoid, as they're non-intuitive and extremely formulaic).
    3. Spell level has always been the first and most important measure of a spell's capabilities and potential limitations. Caster level is then used to determine spell potency (range, # of targets, # of dice or bonus damage/hp, etc.). Again, I don't see a convincing reason to break away from this general formula, as it adds a great deal of subjective assignment of power, which in turn spawns endless debate in and out of games - something that I as a DM generally prefer to avoid as it tends to make games bog down as players protest or argue with the DM. A clear set of design guidelines helps avoid this problem.

    If spell level is used, it also makes it much easier to equate realm spells with normal spells if the normal spells are to be used as any sort of basis for designing realm spells. While it might be more "flavor friendly" to have realm spells being distinct and unique vs. normal spells, it is far less user friendly when designing new realm spells with any sort of clear guidelines. And let's face it, if a spellcasting character designs a new realm spell, wouldn't they base the design on the magic they already understand (their normal spells known)?

    I agree with Irdeggman that Realm Spells should all require research, regardless of who is learning them (sorcerers, clerics, and wizards). This makes for one set of rules rather than 3 or more depending on your class, which I think both simplifies things and keeps all realm spell casters (temple and source regents) on more equal (and competitive) footing.


    Another major problem, discussed recently in the Royal Library, was how to balance normal ritual spells (esp. if cooperative ritial magic is allowed), Battle Magic (in BRCS, gigantic metamagicked spells that would take 10-15 minutes at most to cast, but require huge amounts of spell components and a unit trained to work with the battle caster...I have issues with that, but oh well), and Realm Spells.

    My suggestion is to remove the BRCS version of Battle Magic entirely...in the original BR setting, there were simply unit-based effects for regular area-effect spells, some of which were quite devestating (Cloudkill a particularly vicious unit killer as I recall). Now while that system may need revising (and we're really waiting on a revised Ch. 6 proposal to be able to discuss this in any detail), eliminating or limiting the Battle Magic in a believable, system-compatible way might help distinguish and emphasize the much greater effects of month-long ritual Realm Spells vs. the localized effects of Battle Magic in the field...otherwise all of the unit-affecting Realm Spells like Cure Unit, Battle Bless, and especially Mass Destruction (the most resource-wasting realm spell I've ever seen, given that it only does 1, maybe 2 hits of damage to a few units for massive RP and GB costs) might seem like a real waste of time and resources in comparison...

    I would like to see Mass Destruction revised to become a more viable realm spell for those evocation specialists amongst the Source regents. The color-text description of the spell makes it seem incredible, but the actual effects were obviously limited for fear of upsetting game balance and making it too easy for a strong source regent to simply wipe out a good chunk of an invading force.

    Here's a possible simplified revision for it, changing the damage and save DC to more realistic levels I think. Also, I raised spell level to 3rd instead of 2nd, as Fireball or Lightning Bolt seem like the most appropriate base spells, and a vicious spell like this shouldn't be available to very low-level source regents anyways.

    Mass Destruction
    (Evocation)
    Spell Level: 3rd (wizard/sorcerer)
    Target: up to 1 unit per 3 caster levels
    Regency Cost: 10 RP per unit affected
    Material Cost: 2 GB per unit affected
    Required Holding: Source 5

    A massive barrage of fire and lightning rains down from the sky, ripping apart entire companies of a single targeted army or garrison. While the casting time for the spell is standard (1 month), the actual completion may be delayed. The spell may be completed, and its effects unleashed in the province where it was cast, in the last War Move of the month in which it was cast, or in any of the 4 War Moves of the following month. The caster must remain in that province until the spell is completed, and must have line of sight to the target army when completing the spell.

    Each unit targeted takes 3 hits of damage, with a successful unit Morale check reducing the damage to 1 hit. The DC for the Morale check is standard (DC 13 + caster's primary ability modifier, plus any modifiers for Spell Focus: Evocation). Thus, even veteran units could be destroyed by this spell, though good discipline and leadership will allow a unit to take cover, disperse, and minimize overall damage to a unit. As usual, fortifications add their level to any morale checks made by garrisoned units within.

    **************

    Based on existing BRCS army rules, most units with a decent leader (who get morale bonuses based on their Lead skill as well as any Hero Unit morale bonuses) should have no problem making the moral save, suffering only minimal damage. Even veterans without leaders still get a +4 to +8 (veteran infantry, pikes, archers, cavalry w/ Toughness), giving them a reasonably good chance of survival. Units inside fortifications also stand a good chance of avoiding serious damage.

    But regular or vets who get caught in the open may very well be destroyed outright...perfectly reasonable given the described effects of the spell.

    Also, as acid, cold, force, and sonic damage spells aren't normally available to the same degree of damage and power as fire and lightning at the minimum spell level, I thought it more reasonable to limit the energy types to the basic pair of high-damage 3rd level spell effects.

    Osprey

  4. #14
    Well, if you are going to base the realm spells on the epic spell formula will it then cost lots of gp and exp to make them?

    However, to just research known realm spells it would just take time then, correct?

    Also, would you put in a spellcraft check to cast them then? or just forgo that as the time requirements generally make the spellcraft DC rather low anyway, and if they have more people helpin in the rituals than even lower DC to cast.
    "Who was the first that forged the deadly blade? Of rugged steel his savage soul was made." --Tibullus

    "Qui desiderat pacem praeparet bellum." --Vegetius

    "Men grow tired of sleep, love, singing and dancing sooner than war." --Homer

  5. #15
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    ----- Original Message -----

    From: "tcharazazel" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

    Sent: Monday, April 26, 2004 1:35 PM





    > Well, if you are going to base the realm spells on the epic

    > spell formula will it then cost lots of gp and exp to make them?



    Realm Spells traditionally cost lots of gp (in terms of GB) and RP (which

    many exchange for xp in magical costs), so that cost should naturally remain

    in its BR format.



    Kenneth Gauck

    kgauck@mchsi.com

  6. #16
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    As far as making realm spells similar to epic spells I was only referring to the &#39;learning process&#39;, which I though I had made clear when I was refering to not knowing any automatically.

    Since they take a domain turn to cast (or most of one anyway) the knowledge checks required to cast epic spells doesn&#39;t readily translate, so the casting should be pretty much automatic once the RP and GB costs are met.
    Duane Eggert

  7. #17
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    Posting for comment and potential inclusion:

    Summon Earth’s Army
    (Conjuration)
    Caster Level: Divine [Moradin] 5.
    Target: up to 1 unit/4 levels
    Duration: 4 weeks + 1 week/level (D)
    Saving Throw: None
    Spell Resistance: No
    Regency Cost: 5 RP/unit.
    Material Components: 3 GB/unit worth of expendable ritual components and payment to the summoned creatures.
    Special Requirements: Temple (3), Karamhul caster only, Mountain or Hill terrain

    By calling upon Moradin, Karamhul Clerics may call forth the power of the Elemental Plane of Earth. This spell summons a mixture of Earth Elementals of Medium and Large sizes, Walking Walls, Stonechildren and Xorn to serve the caster faithfully until either dismissed or the spell duration ends.
    Units summoned by this realm spell cannot leave mountainous or hill terrain. A province can muster a maximum number of units equal to the total of the unclaimed source levels and the temple level.


    Unit Type: Earth Army
    Mv: 1
    Melee: +10
    Mis: --
    Chg: +8
    Def: 16
    Hits: 4
    Morale: +6
    "It may be better to be a live jackal than a dead lion, but it is better still to be a live lion -- and usually easier."

    - R. A. Heinlien, from The Collected works of Lazarus Long

  8. #18
    heheh, yeah of course, however, that is to Cast the spell not to Make it.

    To research a realm spell it currently only requires 1gb per month spent researching and them to make a spellcraft DC + spell level. And I think thats fine as long as they are just Researching a Known spell, and not actually Making a new realm spell.

    Making Epic Spell: gp cpst = 9000 gp x ending spellcraft DC with the exp cost = 1/25 of the total cost. So yeah, as the spellcraft DC is gonna be rather low for most of the realm spells there is not much of a need to give them an exp cost, though maybe an RP cost then? heh, just a thought.

    Well, in the BCRS technically 1 blood point = 1000 exp, as this really favors those casters with low bloodlines cause its much easier for them to get back up. My DM made the rule that you get when burning 1 bloodpoint 100 exp x the amount of RP you would get for burning 1 bloodpoint. While Officially 1 RP = 10 exp. So, not really spending that much in terms of exp for most spells, as in epic terms it takes 100 exp to count as -1 to Spellcraft DC to cast the spell. Heheh, so as most spells dont require burning 10 RP minimum they would only really be using the increased time factor to lower the DCs of the spells.

    And yes I know that Casting the spells are to be similar tho not the same as the epic spell creation and casting process, however, it is an exsisting system that offers a decent starting point to figure out what the costs should be. Heh, instead of just arbitrarily picking so much GB and so much RP to spend for the spell.

    As Raesene is planning on offering a methodology to create new spells, I just was curious if he wanted to base the system for making realm spells more on the epic system of spell creation.
    "Who was the first that forged the deadly blade? Of rugged steel his savage soul was made." --Tibullus

    "Qui desiderat pacem praeparet bellum." --Vegetius

    "Men grow tired of sleep, love, singing and dancing sooner than war." --Homer

  9. #19
    btw cool variant just one recomendation, just put the description and the unit description last. In other words, move up the regency cost and material costs with the rest of the bold faced spell info.
    "Who was the first that forged the deadly blade? Of rugged steel his savage soul was made." --Tibullus

    "Qui desiderat pacem praeparet bellum." --Vegetius

    "Men grow tired of sleep, love, singing and dancing sooner than war." --Homer

  10. #20
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Originally posted by tcharazazel@Apr 26 2004, 03:29 PM
    Well, in the BCRS technically 1 blood point = 1000 exp, as this really favors those casters with low bloodlines cause its much easier for them to get back up. My DM made the rule that you get when burning 1 bloodpoint 100 exp x the amount of RP you would get for burning 1 bloodpoint. While Officially 1 RP = 10 exp. So, not really spending that much in terms of exp for most spells, as in epic terms it takes 100 exp to count as -1 to Spellcraft DC to cast the spell. Heheh, so as most spells dont require burning 10 RP minimum they would only really be using the increased time factor to lower the DCs of the spells.

    And yes I know that Casting the spells are to be similar tho not the same as the epic spell creation and casting process, however, it is an exsisting system that offers a decent starting point to figure out what the costs should be. Heh, instead of just arbitrarily picking so much GB and so much RP to spend for the spell.

    As Raesene is planning on offering a methodology to create new spells, I just was curious if he wanted to base the system for making realm spells more on the epic system of spell creation.
    Hmm the 1 RP equals 100 xp was to be removed from the magic chapter. I had commented on that awhile back. In Chap 8, the chapter covering creating magic items is specifies that this should be 1 blood point (not RP) per 1000 xp (and only once per item or spell). This was based on the ability (3-18) based range for blood scores though, so when revised the exp benefit should roughly be halved to 500 xp per blood point of blood score. I had talked about how essentially gaining RP is like collecting interest on something, it doesn&#39;t really &#39;cost&#39; the regent anything personally. Creating magic items is supposed to require some sort of personal sacrifice to make, hence the exp cost.

    The cost of Realm Spells was actually based on the 2nd ed costs for them, so it really isn&#39;t all that arbitrary, unless you assume that is was when TSR created the setting originally. The problem with using the epic rules too much is that the spells don&#39;t quite work the same way, for one there are no epic spells that take as long to cast as do realm spells.
    Duane Eggert

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