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Thread: Bang!

  1. #1
    James Ruhland
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    Bang!

    I don't mind if it's ahistorical: No Gunpowder weapons in Cerilia.
    >
    > Oftimes I'm in agreement with Trizt, this time I'm not. Cerilia should
    have
    > at least bombards to fit in with its late middle ages feel. Gunpowder
    bombards
    > for siege use were widespread by 1350, with really monster models and
    hand
    > weapons appearing by 1400.
    >

  2. #2
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    Bang!

    Just figured I'd toss in my few coppers. :)


    - -----Original Message-----
    From: John Campbell
    To: 'birthright@MPGN.COM'
    Date: Wednesday, January 07, 1998 5:34 PM
    Subject: RE: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Bang!


    >If you are going to consider the use of cannons and guns, keep in mind that
    >historically it heralded the end of armor and castles as represented in
    >this fantasy setting. Cannons and mortars end sieges real quick.

    This was true in real life; however, Birthright is a fantasy rpg.

    "BOOM!"
    ..."dang, that mortar thing keeps puttin' holes in my tower walls! Mr.Mage,
    please lightning-bolt it."
    "ZAP"
    ..."There. No more mortar thing (but boy, was that a BIG explosion, what,
    with all that blackpowder around it)... Oh, when you have the time, cast a
    Wall of Stone to patch those holes up. Thanks."

    ;-)

    As for the end of armor....well, I doubt that would be the case in AD&D.
    With all the heroic personas, devine intervention, unbelievable luck (re:
    mid to high level characters HP's...), etc, that musket-user had better make
    the first shot count...cause if he doesn't, well, I bet a 8th level fighter
    with a +4 th and +7 damage with his long sword +3 will make that musket look
    REALLY pathetic.
    The damage that spells and characters who know what they are doing, simple
    put, far outweighs the benifits of a single musket or even a cannon. Now,
    for an army to have, say 50 muskets, well, there is an advantage....however,
    with all the clerical and other magical healings and protections, a gun
    powder weapon just wouldn't be any more effective than a crossbow or bow.


    >
    >Once you introduce gunpowder you will have a lot of pressure to allow other
    >advances in technology. Your choice, of course, but watch out for all the
    >worms! :-)

    This is the more dangerous part. However, if you do look at the
    'effectiveness' of gunpowder weapons vs. 'normal' weapons (let alone magic
    spells and such), why would a Lord of the land put much effort into
    developing more? Sure, a patato that is thrown at you real fast will hurt,
    but when I have a rock, do I really need to find a better way to throw a
    patato?

    As for the defensive part...

    "Protection from Normal Missiles"
    "Dispel Gunpowder"
    "Gunpowder to Sand"
    "Fireball"

    ;)

    >
    >John


    Denakhan the Arch-Mage.

  3. #3
    c558382@showme.missouri.
    Guest

    Bang!

    The end of the armoured, mounted knight was the return of the phalanx in
    the form of the Swiss Pikemen. The end of the armoured footman was caused
    by the superiority of combat in formation over individual combat tactics.
    Cannon created a new kind of fortification, the trace Italliane, as seen
    in the great sieges of the c17 and c18. The only advantage of early
    arqubuses is that in D&D terms there is no non-proficiency penalty.
    Anyone can use them and there is no to-hit progression. Bob the bartender
    is as good with firearms as High Lord Charles the Mighty, 10th level
    fighter. Secondly, fire arms score four kinds of hits- miss, light wound
    (maybe d12 damage), severe wounds (maybe 9d4), and kills (save vs death
    magic to suffer merely 50 hps damage). You will note that nobles stopped
    fighting in the c16, and started commanding the Bob bartenders of the
    army. A lifetime of combat training is meaningless in the face of a 75
    calibre ball of lead with your name on it.

    Attempts to make firearms conform to more familiar D&D weapons is to
    reduce the arqubus into a sling in which the stone is projected not bu
    centrifical force, but by chemical propellant. In short there not
    firearms as the c16 knew them, but mechanical slingshots. Get yourself a
    crossbow.

    Kenneth Gauck
    c558382@showme.missouri.edu
    [Whose campaign rejects the scientific world I know in favor of the world
    known to such men as Girolamo Ruscelli, Alessio Piemontese, and Nicholas
    of Poland.]

  4. #4
    Trizt
    Guest

    Bang!

    On 08-Jan-98, Denakhan (pming@klondike.com) wrote about Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] -
    Bang!:

    - ->>If you are going to consider the use of cannons and guns, keep in mind that
    - ->>historically it heralded the end of armor and castles as represented in
    - ->>this fantasy setting. Cannons and mortars end sieges real quick.

    - ->As for the end of armor....well, I doubt that would be the case in AD&D.
    - ->With all the heroic personas, devine intervention, unbelievable luck (re:
    - ->mid to high level characters HP's...), etc, that musket-user had better make
    - ->the first shot count...cause if he doesn't, well, I bet a 8th level fighter
    - ->with a +4 th and +7 damage with his long sword +3 will make that musket look
    - ->REALLY pathetic.

    It's not question of what a handful elves and demielves can do, it what the
    masses can do. Before you will find an unit where all has +7 damage with +3
    longswords the shadow lords will have taken over the whole world. It will be
    cheaper to get 100 musketeers with unlimited number of shots than 100
    mages/magicians which may not have more than at top 2 magic missiles per day.
    Don't forget that BR is quite lowe magic world, the number of mages/magicians
    is less than in Waterdeep (FR). So when gunpoder enters BR, it will be the day
    when magic and armour dies.

    What would you hero say when he one day meets the sweet Orog with a "hand
    canon", BOOM, where is that damn hero, I only see his shoes.

    //Trizt of Ward^RITE

    -

  5. #5
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    Bang!

    - -----Original Message-----
    From: Trizt
    To: birthright@MPGN.COM
    Date: Thursday, January 08, 1998 3:59 AM
    Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Bang!


    >On 08-Jan-98, Denakhan (pming@klondike.com) wrote about Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] -
    >Bang!:
    >
    >->>If you are going to consider the use of cannons and guns, keep in mind
    that
    >->>historically it heralded the end of armor and castles as represented in
    >->>this fantasy setting. Cannons and mortars end sieges real quick.
    >
    >->As for the end of armor....well, I doubt that would be the case in AD&D.
    >->With all the heroic personas, devine intervention, unbelievable luck (re:
    >->mid to high level characters HP's...), etc, that musket-user had better
    make
    >->the first shot count...cause if he doesn't, well, I bet a 8th level
    fighter
    >->with a +4 th and +7 damage with his long sword +3 will make that musket
    look
    >->REALLY pathetic.
    >
    >It's not question of what a handful elves and demielves can do, it what the
    >masses can do. Before you will find an unit where all has +7 damage with +3
    >longswords the shadow lords will have taken over the whole world. It will
    be
    >cheaper to get 100 musketeers with unlimited number of shots than 100
    >mages/magicians which may not have more than at top 2 magic missiles per
    day.
    >Don't forget that BR is quite lowe magic world, the number of
    mages/magicians
    >is less than in Waterdeep (FR). So when gunpoder enters BR, it will be the
    day
    >when magic and armour dies.

    I agree with that. Getting +3/+7 should be rare (dang rare), but I was
    talking about a single heroic character (8th level fighter), where that
    +3/+7 isn't so rare.
    Don't even bring in the FR. Bleech. Sorry if this offends all the FR
    fans out there, but the current FR is sickening to me. If you take the 6
    highest level NPC's form that world, and toss them into BR, and you now have
    a world that is ruled by 6 NPC's.
    As for the 100 musketeers vs. 100 mages with 2 Magic Missiles
    each....the musketeers still have to hit their targets (which better be very
    close; IIRC, a musket isn't very precice), whereas the mages are pretty much
    guarenteed 2 kills each (assuming they use both their MM spells (=4 magic
    missiles). But, again, I wouldn't expect to see 100 mages all gathered
    together as a fighting force (well, except maybe FR ;)
    The one thing that I think will keep the gunpowder weapons from
    becoming too 'nigh-omnipotent' would be one simple fact: they would be in
    the AD&D game system. The AD&D game system doesn't work that well when you
    concider gunpowder weapons. There are no 'instant death' or even 'critical
    hits' in the core rules. In order for a musket, for example, to be worth
    spending the GP's for, it would have to do a lot of damage...like 2d6 or
    more. Even with this, the person still has to hit his opponent; and that
    would typically be less than 50% of the time. Then, when he does hit, he
    does his damage. Most likely this will kill his opponent (assuming about
    6hp). However, if he doesn't kill his opponent, his opponent can still
    shoot back. There are no 'pain incapacitation' rules in AD&D. So,
    technically, a musket would be about at useful/good as a bow....except that
    it would be more expensive, be harder to equip, harder to upkeep and be more
    dangerous to use. Hmmmm. Also, lets not forget the ROF. A bow has 2 per
    round and a musket 1 per 2 rounds. So, while the musketeer is reloading,
    his opponent gets to try to get him with 3 shots from his bow.


    >
    >What would you hero say when he one day meets the sweet Orog with a "hand
    >canon", BOOM, where is that damn hero, I only see his shoes.

    Or the other version:
    Your hero beets the sweet Orog with a "hand canon", BOOM!...."Oh
    damn." says the Orog as the fighter turns and proceeds to attack
    him.."swish!...swish!"....ker-plonk!(the sound of the dead Orog hitting the
    floor).

    Not very realistic, I know, but then again, this is AD&D we are talking
    about. :)

    >
    > //Trizt of Ward^RITE


    Denakhan the Arch-Mage.

  6. #6
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    Bang!

    - -----Original Message-----
    From: John Campbell
    To: 'birthright@MPGN.COM'
    Date: Thursday, January 08, 1998 11:17 AM
    Subject: RE: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Bang!


    >What about that +5 musket with Lead balls of seeking? :-)


    Now we're talking! This is what would probably happen. All sorts of
    spells and stuff would be poppin up that enhanced and defended against
    gunpowdered weapons. Now, in real life, we didn't have magic to do this,
    so.....good bye armor and castles. But, in BR, we DO have magic (and
    characters that can take 7 musket shots to the head and still be dishing out
    the death and destruction).

    >The reason Muskets changed the balance was because of the destructive
    >effect that could be given to troops with a fraction of the training. And
    >In BR we ARE talking about wars.

    I would agree with this. This would be the biggest benifit....but would
    it really outweigh training your troops to use a bow or crossbow?
    Maybe...but not by much in AD&D terms.

    Denakhan the Arch-Mage.

  7. #7
    Trizt
    Guest

    Bang!

    On 08-Jan-98, Denakhan (pming@klondike.com) wrote about Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] -
    Bang!:

    - -> I agree with that. Getting +3/+7 should be rare (dang rare), but I was
    - ->talking about a single heroic character (8th level fighter), where that
    - ->+3/+7 isn't so rare.
    A few heros will not do any difference when the majority will have access to
    gunpowder weapons, and you can always use that "boomstick" as an club if you
    would happen to miss and your enemy is to close. You will even be able to
    replace the musket if it would break, but an magical item you don't just go
    and get anotherone.

    - -> Don't even bring in the FR. Bleech. Sorry if this offends all the FR
    - ->fans out there, but the current FR is sickening to me.

    I only use FR as an bad example how wrong things can go... so sorry, I will
    use it alot more

    - ->technically, a musket would be about at useful/good as a bow....except that
    - ->it would be more expensive, be harder to equip, harder to upkeep and be more
    - ->dangerous to use. Hmmmm. Also, lets not forget the ROF. A bow has 2 per
    - ->round and a musket 1 per 2 rounds. So, while the musketeer is reloading,
    - ->his opponent gets to try to get him with 3 shots from his bow.
    While the musketeer are reloading, his friends forms another line and fires,
    and then it's the musketeers lines turn to shoot while his other buddies
    reloads. As with x-bows, the musketeer don't need as much training as the
    archer, the musket will make a far much dangerous damage when it hits than a
    english longbow, even more than a turkish (spl?) shortbow (this one beats that
    longbow in every point) and even the x-bow. The question should not be about
    one on one, but in how it effects the mass combat, muskets will change that
    alot and if we start talking about canons, then we have taken another step
    forward to shadowrun. It should *never* happen that official BR supports any
    kind of firearms, as soon after we will be talking about if every farmer has
    an WC or is it only 2 of 3, IMO a fantasyworld should keep it's technical
    level between the dark ages to the crusaids, it was then when men where real
    men and not whimps like later.


    - -> Or the other version:
    - -> Your hero beets the sweet Orog with a "hand canon", BOOM!...."Oh
    - ->damn." says the Orog as the fighter turns and proceeds to attack
    - ->him.."swish!...swish!"....ker-plonk!(the sound of the dead Orog hitting the
    - ->floor).
    More likely:
    The mighty Orog misses the paladin. The mighty paladin smiles at his foe and
    says, "I'm your doom". SMASH!!, the mighty paladin falls dead on the ground
    and the Orog reloads his metalic club.


    //Trizt of Ward^RITE

    -

  8. #8
    Neil Barnes
    Guest

    Bang!

    On Thu, 8 Jan 1998 c558382@showme.missouri.edu wrote:
    > The end of the armoured, mounted knight was the return of the phalanx in
    > the form of the Swiss Pikemen. The end of the armoured footman was caused
    > by the superiority of combat in formation over individual combat tactics.

    D'oh. I knew I forgot something.

    > Secondly, fire arms score four kinds of hits- miss, light wound
    > (maybe d12 damage), severe wounds (maybe 9d4), and kills (save vs death
    > magic to suffer merely 50 hps damage).

    Shurley Shome mishtake

    The same thing can be said for any weapon - early arquebuses being less
    horrific than (say) a heavy Crossbow. If you want a system that has a
    'realistic' damage handling mechanic, you're playing the wrong game.

    neil

  9. #9
    Neil Barnes
    Guest

    Bang!

    On Thu, 8 Jan 1998, Trizt wrote:
    >
    > It's not question of what a handful elves and demielves can do, it what the
    > masses can do. Before you will find an unit where all has +7 damage with +3
    > longswords the shadow lords will have taken over the whole world. It will be
    > cheaper to get 100 musketeers with unlimited number of shots than 100
    > mages/magicians which may not have more than at top 2 magic missiles per day.
    > Don't forget that BR is quite lowe magic world, the number of mages/magicians
    > is less than in Waterdeep (FR). So when gunpoder enters BR, it will be the day
    > when magic and armour dies.

    Hardly. As Kenneth pointed out, it was changes in infantry tactics which
    signalled the end of heavily armoured knight. The real heyday of the
    Knights charge was during the Crusader period, when the standard armour
    was Chain Mail, with Plate Mail being a relative innovation. If I
    remember my sources correctly, in just about every battle in which the
    Crusader knight could charge the Muslims, they won, even if outnumbered
    10-1. If the terrain or conditions prevented them from charging, they
    were generally outnumbered & lost.

    On a battlefield Cannon were pretty ineffectual until about the period
    of the English Civil War IIRC. Cavalry were still in use until the First
    World War, when they were made redundant by the introduction of the
    machine gun.

    I've heard that in the Charge of the Light Brigade, when the Light
    Brigade reached the Cossacks they were attacking, despite taking
    horrendous casualties from the artillary fire, they decimated the
    Cossacks so badly that for the rest of the Crimean War the Cossacks
    avoided English Cavalry like the plague. Any one know any more?

    Basically I like to think of Cerilia as being a dynamic world.
    Technology & Society advance , rather than holding the world in an
    artificial stasis with Medieval technology & suprisingly liberated
    society. IMC a Cerilian age of exploration is likely soon. The future is
    up for grabs.

    > What would you hero say when he one day meets the sweet Orog with a "hand
    > canon", BOOM, where is that damn hero, I only see his shoes.

    The nice thing about the AD&D damage paradigm is that the hero would
    have lept to the side at the last minute, pick him(or her)self up and
    grunted 'It's only a flesh wound.' Hey the idea survives into the modern
    world in Bruce Willisn films. :)

    neil

  10. #10
    DKEvermore
    Guest

    Bang!

    In a message dated 98-01-08 15:03:12 EST, you write:

    > So why don't other missile weapons do damage like that? Ever consider the
    > cross sectional force of a metal tipped arrow? I know deer that have.
    > You do this for guns you gotta do it for all missals
    >
    Crossbows negate armor at close range in BR (-5 to AC). Long bows do, too, at
    - -2 AC and you still fire at 2/rnd. I think what you mention is already in our
    BR setting....

    good ole BR. Everybody loves BR. ;)
    - -DKE

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