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Thread: Bang!
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01-08-1998, 12:21 AM #1James RuhlandGuest
Bang!
I don't mind if it's ahistorical: No Gunpowder weapons in Cerilia.
>
> Oftimes I'm in agreement with Trizt, this time I'm not. Cerilia should
have
> at least bombards to fit in with its late middle ages feel. Gunpowder
bombards
> for siege use were widespread by 1350, with really monster models and
hand
> weapons appearing by 1400.
>
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01-08-1998, 05:03 AM #2
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Bang!
Just figured I'd toss in my few coppers. :)
- -----Original Message-----
From: John Campbell
To: 'birthright@MPGN.COM'
Date: Wednesday, January 07, 1998 5:34 PM
Subject: RE: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Bang!
>If you are going to consider the use of cannons and guns, keep in mind that
>historically it heralded the end of armor and castles as represented in
>this fantasy setting. Cannons and mortars end sieges real quick.
This was true in real life; however, Birthright is a fantasy rpg.
"BOOM!"
..."dang, that mortar thing keeps puttin' holes in my tower walls! Mr.Mage,
please lightning-bolt it."
"ZAP"
..."There. No more mortar thing (but boy, was that a BIG explosion, what,
with all that blackpowder around it)... Oh, when you have the time, cast a
Wall of Stone to patch those holes up. Thanks."
;-)
As for the end of armor....well, I doubt that would be the case in AD&D.
With all the heroic personas, devine intervention, unbelievable luck (re:
mid to high level characters HP's...), etc, that musket-user had better make
the first shot count...cause if he doesn't, well, I bet a 8th level fighter
with a +4 th and +7 damage with his long sword +3 will make that musket look
REALLY pathetic.
The damage that spells and characters who know what they are doing, simple
put, far outweighs the benifits of a single musket or even a cannon. Now,
for an army to have, say 50 muskets, well, there is an advantage....however,
with all the clerical and other magical healings and protections, a gun
powder weapon just wouldn't be any more effective than a crossbow or bow.
>
>Once you introduce gunpowder you will have a lot of pressure to allow other
>advances in technology. Your choice, of course, but watch out for all the
>worms! :-)
This is the more dangerous part. However, if you do look at the
'effectiveness' of gunpowder weapons vs. 'normal' weapons (let alone magic
spells and such), why would a Lord of the land put much effort into
developing more? Sure, a patato that is thrown at you real fast will hurt,
but when I have a rock, do I really need to find a better way to throw a
patato?
As for the defensive part...
"Protection from Normal Missiles"
"Dispel Gunpowder"
"Gunpowder to Sand"
"Fireball"
;)
>
>John
Denakhan the Arch-Mage.
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01-08-1998, 08:39 AM #3c558382@showme.missouri.Guest
Bang!
The end of the armoured, mounted knight was the return of the phalanx in
the form of the Swiss Pikemen. The end of the armoured footman was caused
by the superiority of combat in formation over individual combat tactics.
Cannon created a new kind of fortification, the trace Italliane, as seen
in the great sieges of the c17 and c18. The only advantage of early
arqubuses is that in D&D terms there is no non-proficiency penalty.
Anyone can use them and there is no to-hit progression. Bob the bartender
is as good with firearms as High Lord Charles the Mighty, 10th level
fighter. Secondly, fire arms score four kinds of hits- miss, light wound
(maybe d12 damage), severe wounds (maybe 9d4), and kills (save vs death
magic to suffer merely 50 hps damage). You will note that nobles stopped
fighting in the c16, and started commanding the Bob bartenders of the
army. A lifetime of combat training is meaningless in the face of a 75
calibre ball of lead with your name on it.
Attempts to make firearms conform to more familiar D&D weapons is to
reduce the arqubus into a sling in which the stone is projected not bu
centrifical force, but by chemical propellant. In short there not
firearms as the c16 knew them, but mechanical slingshots. Get yourself a
crossbow.
Kenneth Gauck
c558382@showme.missouri.edu
[Whose campaign rejects the scientific world I know in favor of the world
known to such men as Girolamo Ruscelli, Alessio Piemontese, and Nicholas
of Poland.]
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01-08-1998, 09:52 AM #4TriztGuest
Bang!
On 08-Jan-98, Denakhan (pming@klondike.com) wrote about Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] -
Bang!:
- ->>If you are going to consider the use of cannons and guns, keep in mind that
- ->>historically it heralded the end of armor and castles as represented in
- ->>this fantasy setting. Cannons and mortars end sieges real quick.
- ->As for the end of armor....well, I doubt that would be the case in AD&D.
- ->With all the heroic personas, devine intervention, unbelievable luck (re:
- ->mid to high level characters HP's...), etc, that musket-user had better make
- ->the first shot count...cause if he doesn't, well, I bet a 8th level fighter
- ->with a +4 th and +7 damage with his long sword +3 will make that musket look
- ->REALLY pathetic.
It's not question of what a handful elves and demielves can do, it what the
masses can do. Before you will find an unit where all has +7 damage with +3
longswords the shadow lords will have taken over the whole world. It will be
cheaper to get 100 musketeers with unlimited number of shots than 100
mages/magicians which may not have more than at top 2 magic missiles per day.
Don't forget that BR is quite lowe magic world, the number of mages/magicians
is less than in Waterdeep (FR). So when gunpoder enters BR, it will be the day
when magic and armour dies.
What would you hero say when he one day meets the sweet Orog with a "hand
canon", BOOM, where is that damn hero, I only see his shoes.
//Trizt of Ward^RITE
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01-08-1998, 09:17 PM #5
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Bang!
- -----Original Message-----
From: Trizt
To: birthright@MPGN.COM
Date: Thursday, January 08, 1998 3:59 AM
Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Bang!
>On 08-Jan-98, Denakhan (pming@klondike.com) wrote about Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] -
>Bang!:
>
>->>If you are going to consider the use of cannons and guns, keep in mind
that
>->>historically it heralded the end of armor and castles as represented in
>->>this fantasy setting. Cannons and mortars end sieges real quick.
>
>->As for the end of armor....well, I doubt that would be the case in AD&D.
>->With all the heroic personas, devine intervention, unbelievable luck (re:
>->mid to high level characters HP's...), etc, that musket-user had better
make
>->the first shot count...cause if he doesn't, well, I bet a 8th level
fighter
>->with a +4 th and +7 damage with his long sword +3 will make that musket
look
>->REALLY pathetic.
>
>It's not question of what a handful elves and demielves can do, it what the
>masses can do. Before you will find an unit where all has +7 damage with +3
>longswords the shadow lords will have taken over the whole world. It will
be
>cheaper to get 100 musketeers with unlimited number of shots than 100
>mages/magicians which may not have more than at top 2 magic missiles per
day.
>Don't forget that BR is quite lowe magic world, the number of
mages/magicians
>is less than in Waterdeep (FR). So when gunpoder enters BR, it will be the
day
>when magic and armour dies.
I agree with that. Getting +3/+7 should be rare (dang rare), but I was
talking about a single heroic character (8th level fighter), where that
+3/+7 isn't so rare.
Don't even bring in the FR. Bleech. Sorry if this offends all the FR
fans out there, but the current FR is sickening to me. If you take the 6
highest level NPC's form that world, and toss them into BR, and you now have
a world that is ruled by 6 NPC's.
As for the 100 musketeers vs. 100 mages with 2 Magic Missiles
each....the musketeers still have to hit their targets (which better be very
close; IIRC, a musket isn't very precice), whereas the mages are pretty much
guarenteed 2 kills each (assuming they use both their MM spells (=4 magic
missiles). But, again, I wouldn't expect to see 100 mages all gathered
together as a fighting force (well, except maybe FR ;)
The one thing that I think will keep the gunpowder weapons from
becoming too 'nigh-omnipotent' would be one simple fact: they would be in
the AD&D game system. The AD&D game system doesn't work that well when you
concider gunpowder weapons. There are no 'instant death' or even 'critical
hits' in the core rules. In order for a musket, for example, to be worth
spending the GP's for, it would have to do a lot of damage...like 2d6 or
more. Even with this, the person still has to hit his opponent; and that
would typically be less than 50% of the time. Then, when he does hit, he
does his damage. Most likely this will kill his opponent (assuming about
6hp). However, if he doesn't kill his opponent, his opponent can still
shoot back. There are no 'pain incapacitation' rules in AD&D. So,
technically, a musket would be about at useful/good as a bow....except that
it would be more expensive, be harder to equip, harder to upkeep and be more
dangerous to use. Hmmmm. Also, lets not forget the ROF. A bow has 2 per
round and a musket 1 per 2 rounds. So, while the musketeer is reloading,
his opponent gets to try to get him with 3 shots from his bow.
>
>What would you hero say when he one day meets the sweet Orog with a "hand
>canon", BOOM, where is that damn hero, I only see his shoes.
Or the other version:
Your hero beets the sweet Orog with a "hand canon", BOOM!...."Oh
damn." says the Orog as the fighter turns and proceeds to attack
him.."swish!...swish!"....ker-plonk!(the sound of the dead Orog hitting the
floor).
Not very realistic, I know, but then again, this is AD&D we are talking
about. :)
>
> //Trizt of Ward^RITE
Denakhan the Arch-Mage.
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01-08-1998, 09:26 PM #6
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Bang!
- -----Original Message-----
From: John Campbell
To: 'birthright@MPGN.COM'
Date: Thursday, January 08, 1998 11:17 AM
Subject: RE: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Bang!
>What about that +5 musket with Lead balls of seeking? :-)
Now we're talking! This is what would probably happen. All sorts of
spells and stuff would be poppin up that enhanced and defended against
gunpowdered weapons. Now, in real life, we didn't have magic to do this,
so.....good bye armor and castles. But, in BR, we DO have magic (and
characters that can take 7 musket shots to the head and still be dishing out
the death and destruction).
>The reason Muskets changed the balance was because of the destructive
>effect that could be given to troops with a fraction of the training. And
>In BR we ARE talking about wars.
I would agree with this. This would be the biggest benifit....but would
it really outweigh training your troops to use a bow or crossbow?
Maybe...but not by much in AD&D terms.
Denakhan the Arch-Mage.
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01-09-1998, 07:47 AM #7TriztGuest
Bang!
On 08-Jan-98, Denakhan (pming@klondike.com) wrote about Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] -
Bang!:
- -> I agree with that. Getting +3/+7 should be rare (dang rare), but I was
- ->talking about a single heroic character (8th level fighter), where that
- ->+3/+7 isn't so rare.
A few heros will not do any difference when the majority will have access to
gunpowder weapons, and you can always use that "boomstick" as an club if you
would happen to miss and your enemy is to close. You will even be able to
replace the musket if it would break, but an magical item you don't just go
and get anotherone.
- -> Don't even bring in the FR. Bleech. Sorry if this offends all the FR
- ->fans out there, but the current FR is sickening to me.
I only use FR as an bad example how wrong things can go... so sorry, I will
use it alot more
- ->technically, a musket would be about at useful/good as a bow....except that
- ->it would be more expensive, be harder to equip, harder to upkeep and be more
- ->dangerous to use. Hmmmm. Also, lets not forget the ROF. A bow has 2 per
- ->round and a musket 1 per 2 rounds. So, while the musketeer is reloading,
- ->his opponent gets to try to get him with 3 shots from his bow.
While the musketeer are reloading, his friends forms another line and fires,
and then it's the musketeers lines turn to shoot while his other buddies
reloads. As with x-bows, the musketeer don't need as much training as the
archer, the musket will make a far much dangerous damage when it hits than a
english longbow, even more than a turkish (spl?) shortbow (this one beats that
longbow in every point) and even the x-bow. The question should not be about
one on one, but in how it effects the mass combat, muskets will change that
alot and if we start talking about canons, then we have taken another step
forward to shadowrun. It should *never* happen that official BR supports any
kind of firearms, as soon after we will be talking about if every farmer has
an WC or is it only 2 of 3, IMO a fantasyworld should keep it's technical
level between the dark ages to the crusaids, it was then when men where real
men and not whimps like later.
- -> Or the other version:
- -> Your hero beets the sweet Orog with a "hand canon", BOOM!...."Oh
- ->damn." says the Orog as the fighter turns and proceeds to attack
- ->him.."swish!...swish!"....ker-plonk!(the sound of the dead Orog hitting the
- ->floor).
More likely:
The mighty Orog misses the paladin. The mighty paladin smiles at his foe and
says, "I'm your doom". SMASH!!, the mighty paladin falls dead on the ground
and the Orog reloads his metalic club.
//Trizt of Ward^RITE
-
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01-09-1998, 12:36 PM #8Neil BarnesGuest
Bang!
On Thu, 8 Jan 1998 c558382@showme.missouri.edu wrote:
> The end of the armoured, mounted knight was the return of the phalanx in
> the form of the Swiss Pikemen. The end of the armoured footman was caused
> by the superiority of combat in formation over individual combat tactics.
D'oh. I knew I forgot something.
> Secondly, fire arms score four kinds of hits- miss, light wound
> (maybe d12 damage), severe wounds (maybe 9d4), and kills (save vs death
> magic to suffer merely 50 hps damage).
Shurley Shome mishtake
The same thing can be said for any weapon - early arquebuses being less
horrific than (say) a heavy Crossbow. If you want a system that has a
'realistic' damage handling mechanic, you're playing the wrong game.
neil
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01-09-1998, 12:53 PM #9Neil BarnesGuest
Bang!
On Thu, 8 Jan 1998, Trizt wrote:
>
> It's not question of what a handful elves and demielves can do, it what the
> masses can do. Before you will find an unit where all has +7 damage with +3
> longswords the shadow lords will have taken over the whole world. It will be
> cheaper to get 100 musketeers with unlimited number of shots than 100
> mages/magicians which may not have more than at top 2 magic missiles per day.
> Don't forget that BR is quite lowe magic world, the number of mages/magicians
> is less than in Waterdeep (FR). So when gunpoder enters BR, it will be the day
> when magic and armour dies.
Hardly. As Kenneth pointed out, it was changes in infantry tactics which
signalled the end of heavily armoured knight. The real heyday of the
Knights charge was during the Crusader period, when the standard armour
was Chain Mail, with Plate Mail being a relative innovation. If I
remember my sources correctly, in just about every battle in which the
Crusader knight could charge the Muslims, they won, even if outnumbered
10-1. If the terrain or conditions prevented them from charging, they
were generally outnumbered & lost.
On a battlefield Cannon were pretty ineffectual until about the period
of the English Civil War IIRC. Cavalry were still in use until the First
World War, when they were made redundant by the introduction of the
machine gun.
I've heard that in the Charge of the Light Brigade, when the Light
Brigade reached the Cossacks they were attacking, despite taking
horrendous casualties from the artillary fire, they decimated the
Cossacks so badly that for the rest of the Crimean War the Cossacks
avoided English Cavalry like the plague. Any one know any more?
Basically I like to think of Cerilia as being a dynamic world.
Technology & Society advance , rather than holding the world in an
artificial stasis with Medieval technology & suprisingly liberated
society. IMC a Cerilian age of exploration is likely soon. The future is
up for grabs.
> What would you hero say when he one day meets the sweet Orog with a "hand
> canon", BOOM, where is that damn hero, I only see his shoes.
The nice thing about the AD&D damage paradigm is that the hero would
have lept to the side at the last minute, pick him(or her)self up and
grunted 'It's only a flesh wound.' Hey the idea survives into the modern
world in Bruce Willisn films. :)
neil
-
01-09-1998, 02:27 PM #10DKEvermoreGuest
Bang!
In a message dated 98-01-08 15:03:12 EST, you write:
> So why don't other missile weapons do damage like that? Ever consider the
> cross sectional force of a metal tipped arrow? I know deer that have.
> You do this for guns you gotta do it for all missals
>
Crossbows negate armor at close range in BR (-5 to AC). Long bows do, too, at
- -2 AC and you still fire at 2/rnd. I think what you mention is already in our
BR setting....
good ole BR. Everybody loves BR. ;)
- -DKE
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