UA bloodlines for Br

[RaspK_FOG]

In all cases, there are three basic ways of thinking (a common pattern, really):

• The one extreme, which supports the one idea in an all-out fashion. The defended cocnept can be offense-over-defense in martial arts, leaving the past behind, communism, or whatever...
• There also is the other extreme, which supports the other concept in an all-out fashion. This could be a defense-onver offense approach in martial arts, respecting and upholding tradition above all else, or even fascism.
• The last of the three is not mediocricy, as some people think of it, but being impartial instead. This means the person who utilises defense and offense as seen fit in martial arts, who respects tradition but does not get stuck with it, and who realises the benefits of socialism and capitalism and does as seen fit.

While this approach seems like one has not really made a choice, it is not actually so. It reflects wisdom, to strive for what works best than to actually work only one way or another. Inflexibility and disability to evolve result in fatal mistakes, not to mention they are fatal mistakes themselves.

So, by accepting the past, but actually working around its errors to our best interests is really the goal; saying "the past was just a mistake, so we must work things out all over" is mostly self-righteous, and does not realise that working on a new basis only helps a system deteriorate, since mistakes are a fundamental part of reality. It is not a matter of whether you actually make no mistakes, but whether you can survive and work around such errors...

Building a new system for Birthright won't allow for a reestablishment of Birthright, rather, it will simply recreate it, without space for reevaluation. In other words, it won't be Birthright, it will simply be Birthright-like.

[the Falcon]

Originally posted by Ariadne+Mar 22 2004, 02:11 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Ariadne &#064; Mar 22 2004, 02:11 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>So my idea to modify your idea is: Add some randomness to it. Don’t write: Granted feat (Power Attack), but : Roll 1d6 to get 1 blood ability tied to feats. Don’t write: +2 to jump skill, but: Roll 1d6 to get +2 to a blood ability tied to skills (and the enhancements to this skill later). And instead “Gust of Wind” something like the special abilities found within the blood ability tables.[/b]

I think adding randomness would seriously make things worse. I can see the point of introducing choice to allow players more control over the development of their characters. Randomness with permanent results sounds like a pretty bad idea to me.

<!--QuoteBegin-Ariadne@Mar 22 2004, 02:11 AM
Further I woudn’t grant +2 to ability scores each time, because UA grants only +1 each time too. Those electricity things aren’t that fitting too IMO, because Anduiras is the god of noble war and the sky. Electricity things are something especially for Cuiraécen, and only he should grant resistance and immunity to it (it shouldn’t be able to get it inherited by any other god, even his “ancestor”).[/quote]Oh yes, I would grant a +2 bonus. It fits much better into the whole D&D 3e design. A +2 bonus doesn&#39;t give an unfair advantage to someone who just happens to have an uneven number for that particular ability score. A +1 bonus doesn&#39;t help you at all if your ability score is even.

[the Falcon]

Okay, here&#39;s my revised system for bloodlines. Below is the general progression for a major bloodline. An intermediate bloodline grants traits as if you had a major bloodline at half your character level. A minor bloodline grants traits as if you had a intermediate bloodline at half your character level.
In order to benefit from a major bloodline you must take a Bloodline level at 3rd character level, 6th character level, and 12th character level. An intermediate bloodline requires a Bloodline level at 6th character level and 12th character level. A minor bloodline requires a Bloodline level only at 12th character level. If you don&#39;t take a Bloodline level before or at the appropriate character levels, you stop accumulating bloodline traits until you take the required bloodline level. A Bloodline level doesn&#39;t give you any improvement in Hit Dice, BAB, Saves or Skill Points, but it does give you a +1 bonus on your class level when calculating variables dependent on class levels such as spell durations, caster level checks, save DCs, etc.


MAJOR BLOODLINE TRAITS

Character Level, Trait:

1. Skill Boost
2. Blood Ability
3. Ability Boost
4. Blood Ability
5. Bloodmark +1
6. Blood Ability
7. Skill Boost
8. Blood Ability
9. Ability Boost
10. Blood Ability
11. Bloodmark +2
12. Blood Ability
13. Skill Boost
14. Blood Ability
15. Ability Boost
16. Blood Ability
17. Bloodmark +3
18. Blood Ability
19. Skill Boost
20. Blood Ability

Skill Boost: Choose one skill from your derivation&#39;s list. You receive a +2 bonus on checks made with the chosen skill. Each time you gain a skill boost, it applies to a new skill. (You cannot select the same skill twice.)
Anduiras: Diplomacy, Heal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (any one).
Azrai: Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Intimidate, Knowledge (any one), Listen, Search, Spot.
Basaïa: Diplomacy, Heal, Intimidate, Knowledge (any one), Listen, Sense Motive, Spot.
Brenna: Balance, Diplomacy, Disguise, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Sense Motive, Spot, Tumble.
Masela: Appraise, Gather Information, Intimidate, Knowledge (any one), Perform, Swim.
Reynir: Climb, Heal, Knowledge (any one), Listen, Search, Spot.
Vorynn: Concentration, Disguise, Gather Information, Knowledge (any one), Sense Motive.

Blood Ability: You gain a blood ability of your choice. All blood abilities have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated bloodline derivation, bloodline strength, character level, or blood ability in order to select the blood ability. You can gain a blood ability at the same level at which you gain the prerequisite. All spell-like abilities granted by blood abilities use the character&#39;s number of Hit Dice as the spellcaster level. Unless specified otherwise, you can take each blood ability only once.

Ability Boost: Choose one ability score from your derivation&#39;s list. You gain a permanent +2 increase to the chosen ability score. Each time you gain an ability boost, it applies to a new ability score. (You cannot select the same ability score twice.)
Anduiras: Strength, Wisdom, Charisma.
Azrai: Constitution, Intelligence, Charisma.
Basaïa: Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma.
Brenna: Dexterity, Wisdom, Charisma.
Masela: Dexterity, Constitution, Charisma.
Reynir: Dexterity, Constitution, Wisdom.
Vorynn: Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom.

Bloodmark: You gain the indicated bonus on all Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate, and Perform checks made to interact with non-blooded creatures as long as your bloodmark is visible to them.


Some blood abilities will follow in my next post.
Also, if you have any suggestions for additions or modifications to the Skill Boost list of skills per derivation, be my guest.
Whatever you suggest, please, support it with arguments. Thank you.

[the Falcon]

Note: Especially the list of bonus feats per derivation could use some improvements. Suggestions welcome.


BLOOD ABILITY DESCRIPTIONS

ALTER SELF
Derivations: Azrai, Brenna, Vorynn.
Minimum Character Level: Minor 8th, intermediate 4th, major 2nd.
Benefit: Alter self 1/day (Sp).

BONUS FEAT
Derivations: All.
Minimum Character Level: Minor 8th, intermediate 4th, major 2nd.
Benefit: Choose one feat from your derivation&#39;s list. You gain that feat as a bonus feat. You still must meet all the normal prerequisites for the feat in order to be able to take it.
Anduiras: Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Overrun, Improved Sunder.
Azrai: Alertness, Great Fortitude, Iron Will, Stealthy.
Basaïa: Far Shot, Improved Precise Shot, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Manyshot.
Brenna: Dodge, Lightning Reflexes, Mobility, Spring Attack, Stealthy.
Masela: Combat Reflexes, Weapon Finesse.
Reynir: Alertness, Great Fortitude, Iron Will.
Vorynn: Blind-Fight, Improved Initiative, Weapon Finesse.

CHARM PERSON
Derivations: Azrai, Basaïa, Brenna.
Minimum Character Level: Minor 16th, intermediate 8th, major 4th.
Benefit: Charm person 1/day (Sp).

DARKNESS
Derivations: Azrai, Brenna.
Minimum Character Level: Minor 16th, intermediate 8th, major 4th.
Benefit: Darkness 1/day (Sp).

DETECT POISON
Derivations: Azrai, Reynir.
Minimum Character Level: Minor 16th, intermediate 8th, major 4th.
Benefit: Detect poison 1/day (Sp).

DETECT THOUGHTS
Derivations: Basaïa, Brenna, Vorynn.
Minimum Character Level: Minor 16th, intermediate 8th, major 4th.
Benefit: Detect thoughts 1/day (Sp).

DOUBLE HEAL RATE
Derivations: Reynir.
Minimum Character Level: Minor 16th, intermediate 8th, major 4th.
Benefit: You heal naturally at double normal heal rates. This is an extraordinary ability.

ENERGY RESISTANCE, MINOR
Derivations: Anduiras, Basaïa, Masela, Reynir.
Minimum Character Level: Minor 16th, intermediate 8th, major 4th.
Benefit: You gain resistance 5 against the energy type associated with your derivation.
Anduiras: electricity.
Basaïa: fire.
Masela: acid.
Reynir: cold.

ENERGY RESISTANCE, MAJOR
Derivations: Anduiras, Basaïa, Masela, Reynir.
Minimum Character Level: Intermediate 16th, major 8th.
Prerequisite Blood Ability: Minor Energy Resistance.
Benefit: You gain resistance 10 against the energy type associated with your derivation.
Anduiras: electricity.
Basaïa: fire.
Masela: acid.
Reynir: cold.

FOG CLOUD
Derivations: Masela.
Minimum Character Level: Minor 16th, intermediate 8th, major 4th.
Benefit: Fog cloud 1/day (Sp).

GUST OF WIND
Derivations: Anduiras.
Minimum Character Level: Minor 16th, intermediate 8th, major 4th.
Benefit: Gust of wind 1/day (Sp).

IMPROVED NATURAL ARMOR
Derivations: All.
Minimum Character Level: Minor 16th, intermediate 8th, major 4th.
Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus to your natural armor.
Special: You can take this blood ability more than once. Each time you take it, its effects stack.

INVISIBILITY
Derivations: Azrai, Brenna.
Minimum Character Level: Minor 16th, intermediate 8th, major 4th.
Benefit: Invisibility 1/day (Sp).

LEVITATE
Derivations: Anduiras, Vorynn.
Minimum Character Level: Minor 16th, intermediate 8th, major 4th.
Benefit: Levitate 1/day (Sp).

LOW-LIGHT VISION
Derivations: Azrai, Brenna.
Minimum Character Level: Minor 16th, intermediate 8th, major 4th.
Benefit: You gain low-light vision.

MELD INTO STONE
Derivations: Reynir.
Minimum Character Level: Minor 16th, intermediate 8th, major 4th.
Benefit: Meld into stone 1/day (Sp).

OBSCURING MIST
Derivations: Masela.
Minimum Character Level: Intermediate 12th, major 6th.
Benefit: Obscuring mist 1/day (Sp).

PYROTECHNICS
Derivations: Basaïa.
Minimum Character Level: Minor 16th, intermediate 8th, major 4th.
Benefit: Pyrotechnics 1/day (Sp).

SCENT
Derivations: Reynir.
Minimum Character Level: Minor 16th, intermediate 8th, major 4th.
Benefit: Scent (Ex).

SHATTER
Derivations: Vorynn.
Minimum Character Level: Minor 16th, intermediate 8th, major 4th.
Benefit: Shatter 1/day (Sp).

SPELL RESISTANCE
Derivations: Vorynn.
Minimum Character Level: Minor 16th, intermediate 8th, major 4th.
Benefit: You gain spell resistance equal to 2 plus your number of Hit Dice.

STONE SHAPE
Derivations: Reynir.
Minimum Character Level: Intermediate 12th, major 6th.
Benefit: Stone shape 1/day (Sp).


EDIT: Oh, mind you, this is only a partial list; it includes only the lower level blood abilities. I haven&#39;t had the time to type out the higher level blood abilities yet.

[irdeggman]

I actually think that this makes the original proposal even worse.

What you have essentially done is create a &#39;generic&#39; scion class, with no hit die/BAB/Saving throw bonuses/Skill points, if you step back and look at it from a distance. This is drastically different than the UA bloodlines. Just an opinion.

[the Falcon]

Originally posted by irdeggman+Mar 26 2004, 12:59 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (irdeggman &#064; Mar 26 2004, 12:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>What you have essentially done is create a &#39;generic&#39; scion class, with no hit die/BAB/Saving throw bonuses/Skill points, if you step back and look at it from a distance.[/b]

No, I haven&#39;t. You still only have to take one, two, or three level in Bloodline. This is not a full-fledged, generic class. Or if that&#39;s not what you mean, please explain yourself better.

Originally posted by irdeggman@Mar 26 2004, 12:59 PM
This is drastically different than the UA bloodlines. Just an opinion.

Yes, it&#39;s a little bit different from the UA bloodlines, but drastically? Hardly, I think. It&#39;s just UA bloodlines but with added flexibility. So instead of having to make something like 20+ bloodlines, like they did in UA, you can let the players compose their own bloodlines. The end result, however, is not that much different from the bloodlines you can find in UA.

<!--QuoteBegin-irdeggman@Mar 26 2004, 12:59 PM
I actually think that this makes the original proposal even worse.[/quote]How? Why? Explain yourself. You have not presented me with any concrete arguments to support this view.

[irdeggman]

QUOTE (irdeggman @ Mar 26 2004, 12:59 PM)
What you have essentially done is create a &#39;generic&#39; scion class, with no hit die/BAB/Saving throw bonuses/Skill points, if you step back and look at it from a distance.

No, I haven&#39;t. You still only have to take one, two, or three level in Bloodline. This is not a full-fledged, generic class. Or if that&#39;s not what you mean, please explain yourself better.

What I meant was that in addition to the normal bloodline class levels required, the progression that grants a choice of abilities (that is any blood ability that the scion meets the prerequisites for). This method is almost identical to that of the way classes grant class abilities. For example the fighter feats, the ranger feats, etc.

QUOTE (irdeggman @ Mar 26 2004, 12:59 PM)
This is drastically different than the UA bloodlines. Just an opinion.

Yes, it&#39;s a little bit different from the UA bloodlines, but drastically? Hardly, I think. It&#39;s just UA bloodlines but with added flexibility. So instead of having to make something like 20+ bloodlines, like they did in UA, you can let the players compose their own bloodlines. The end result, however, is not that much different from the bloodlines you can find in UA.

Actually it is still quite a bit different. The UA bloodlines are a method of defining (and granting) physical attributes that are common to the source creature. Once the randomness was added this definition became very blurred.

QUOTE (irdeggman @ Mar 26 2004, 12:59 PM)
I actually think that this makes the original proposal even worse.

How? Why? Explain yourself. You have not presented me with any concrete arguments to support this view.

I hope I have made it a little clearer what I meant with my explanation. But what I was trying to say was that the original proposal had a clear definition of the physical characteristic of deity. That definition needed tweaking IMO, but there was one. The original proposal had the scion with the bloodline start to pick up those physical characteristics as he gained levels. This was in direct following with the mechanics and obvious intent of the UA bloodline system. The present proposal with all of the options based on choices of blood abilities straws a lot from that original (and the UA) tact.


The more I look at the UA bloodline system, the more I think that it would very easily be adapted to address Awn/ersh. I would just have 2 applicable levels though Minor (UA definition) that translates to Bloodform - major and Major (UA definition) that translates to Bloodform - great. Since 2nd ed had the awn transformation progression depending on how often the scion used his blood abilities (a really vague definition after all) a character level based equivalent could be pretty mechanically representative. This system would then result in an additional +1 or +2 to the scion&#39;s effective level based on how far the transformation went. These are in addition to any gained by gaining blood abilities themselves (using the BRCS system it would be in addition to any scion class levels). The physical base would have to be some monster or animal type from the MM and then those physical attributes would have to be broken down. Each scion would have a unique advancement.

Now it might vary from the UA system if the character level progression was changed to the levels after gaining bloodform or bloodtrait blood abilities. This would be change from the UA system, but might not be that bad, hmmm. {pondering, pondering}

[the Falcon]

Originally posted by irdeggman+Mar 28 2004, 02:26 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (irdeggman &#064; Mar 28 2004, 02:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by irdeggman @ Mar 26 2004@ 12:59 PM
What you have essentially done is create a &#39;generic&#39; scion class, with no hit die/BAB/Saving throw bonuses/Skill points, if you step back and look at it from a distance.

No, I haven&#39;t. You still only have to take one, two, or three level in Bloodline. This is not a full-fledged, generic class. Or if that&#39;s not what you mean, please explain yourself better.

What I meant was that in addition to the normal bloodline class levels required, the progression that grants a choice of abilities (that is any blood ability that the scion meets the prerequisites for). This method is almost identical to that of the way classes grant class abilities. For example the fighter feats, the ranger feats, etc.

Originally posted by irdeggman @ Mar 26 2004@ 12:59 PM
This is drastically different than the UA bloodlines. Just an opinion.

Yes, it&#39;s a little bit different from the UA bloodlines, but drastically? Hardly, I think. It&#39;s just UA bloodlines but with added flexibility. So instead of having to make something like 20+ bloodlines, like they did in UA, you can let the players compose their own bloodlines. The end result, however, is not that much different from the bloodlines you can find in UA.

Actually it is still quite a bit different. The UA bloodlines are a method of defining (and granting) physical attributes that are common to the source creature. Once the randomness was added this definition became very blurred.
[/b]

I didn&#39;t add any randomness. I added choice. To me there&#39;s a difference. Anyhow, more flexibility is what has been requested, so that&#39;s what I&#39;ve aimed for.

Originally posted by irdeggman@Mar 28 2004, 02:26 PM

<!--QuoteBegin-irdeggman @ Mar 26 2004

@ 12:59 PM
I actually think that this makes the original proposal even worse.

How? Why? Explain yourself. You have not presented me with any concrete arguments to support this view.

I hope I have made it a little clearer what I meant with my explanation. But what I was trying to say was that the original proposal had a clear definition of the physical characteristic of deity. That definition needed tweaking IMO, but there was one. The original proposal had the scion with the bloodline start to pick up those physical characteristics as he gained levels. This was in direct following with the mechanics and obvious intent of the UA bloodline system. The present proposal with all of the options based on choices of blood abilities straws a lot from that original (and the UA) tact.
[/quote]It is quite clear what you meant with your explanation, but you still fail to show how your arguments support your conclusion that "this this makes the original proposal even worse". Suppose my current "proposal" (Who am I proposing to? What am I proposing for?) is more class-like than my original proposal. Suppose it is "drastically different than than the UA bloodlines". So what? How does that make it worse? Why is that bad? You still haven&#39;t told me. It simply doesn&#39;t follow.

[jdpb1]

Hey Falcon&#33;

I, for one, really like what you&#39;re doing with the UA bloodline thing. I started to work out a conversion just recently. I am far from finished, and now I&#39;m thrilled to come across your version. I think the choice aspect you&#39;ve added is great.

I&#39;d love to see your write ups for higher level powers&#33;

I&#39;ve been lurking on this board for about three years now. I&#39;ve gotten great use out of the BRCS Playtest doc and Travis Doom&#39;s conversion, but this is the first time I&#39;ve felt compelled to post. The forums seem to be filled with a lot of naysayers and pointless arguments, but guys like you who take the time and effort to post fleshed out ideas are a great asset.

The bloodline conversion has been the true sticking point for 3E BR. The versions offered in the afrementioned documents proved unwieldy in my games and have forced my group to abandon BR for a while until I can figure out a fix. With the superb UA book and your work here, I just may have found a solution. Thanks&#33;

Keep up the good work&#33;

Joe

PS-- No system, including the UA version, will be perfect. Let&#39;s face it, the 2E BR Bloodlines were far from perfect. I think it is pointless to argue about the conversion the way many here do. How on earth can we argue for a balanced, consistent, rules compatible bloodline system in 3E and also demand it be a faithful conversion from 2E? The 2E version was an unbalanced, inconsistent, add-on ruleset&#33;

Just my 2 cents&#33;

[jdpb1]

Two quick additions:

My rant about pointless bickering was directed at the masses of forum posters in general, not specifically at the guys criticizing you in this thread.


The very valid point has been raised: how do we integrate blood score in this UA version of bloodline? I think it might be easiest to simply have the score work the same as 2e. Afterall, its only effect in 2E was in domain level play. It is only the 3E conversions that have tried to directly link the score with blood powers. What if we simply kept it as a 1-100 score that fluctuates primarily with domain actions and bloodtheft and has little to no bearing on blood ability?

Thanks
Joe