The Spider's Stats, Assistance needed to help with

[tcharazazel]

I'm glad we agree the CR is too low. Its somethng that seems low for any 2000+ year old being, heh hell even 100+ years, tho the spirit of BR is that its a low level game... which basically somehow overrules the common facts that there would never be a being that is below epic level that has lived for that long, experienced that much, and has managed to retain even a fraction of the knowledge learned over its life time. Basically, it falls into that whole arguement with the elves and how they should be much tougher cause they are immortal ect.

Heh, and i bet other druids have tried to kill him by now either with a group or how you describe it, wild shaped into a little bird and sneaking in. So, you'd have to figure that he would keep a few good Lieutenants nearby him at all times, for example a shaman and a fighter, both of whom would be decent level as they could have been leading the raids on the neighboring provinces.

And actually, I never said the spider would lead those raids and thus leave the Fell, just that he would organize them heheh, cause by now, he really shouldnt be getting exp from slaughtering lots of low level minions, problems of being so old and so high level and like you said he may have been caught outside the fell before and survived so why would he want to keep riskin his neck, when he could just as easy send a general of his.

So, you could always wait to attack him when those minions are off looting the nearby provinces... so there would only be a small defense at home. Though, you'd really think that the Spider would probably have lots of pet spiders that he would keep with him and could easily call at a moments notice with great animal affinity...

Heh, it really comes down to how likely you are to face the spider one on one which is the basis for your arguement... and mine is simply that its almost impossible to do so, for longer than 1 round at least, and we already know that the druid would require several rounds to defeat the spider. as the 1st round would be to cast wall of thorns, 2nd round would be to change into the bear, 3rd round would be to move up and possibly engage... ect.

If you tried to meet him on the battlefield then he would definately not be alone so im surprised that was even brought up as he would definately have his bodyguards and his lieutenants with him then. Tho of course id sure hope the druid wouldnt be alone for that either.

And the greatest problem the druid would face... even if the druid managed to get in there and "kill" the Spider... the spider still wouldnt be dead... unless somehow the druid was able to figure out how to overcome the Invulnerability... heh, and by the time the druid had managed to kill the Spider, the druid would have the whole of the goblin town, or army ect attacking... so unless crushing him to death with your dead wieght is the key to defeating the spiders Invulnerability then it wouldnt prove all that useful to even try. Heh, cause in a few days with his major regen hell be up and about, while the druid would have been a nice meal for the goblins.

The Invulnerability, Major regen and great animal affinity is probably what has saved the Spider from many such suprise attacks and lived to tell about, at least for the first couple hundred years when he would have been caught off guard by the use of such tactics... after 2000+ years... hes probably ready for just about anything you can think of throwin at him, especially considering that he is just guarding a small area and has ben doing so very successfully for so long.


Heheh, looking over this.. i went a little off topic and countered myself once tho as a whole... I'd have to say thats one suicidal druid who would try to fly in and take out the Spider alone.

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----

From: "Athos69" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2004 3:42 PM



> *WHY* are we engaged in this annoying pissing contest?

> It is irrelevant to balancing the Spider to make suppositions

> based on "What if you dropped him in an arena with

> a 12th level druid?"



These kind of excercises may not appeal to everyone, but they do help you

figure out if anything is way off kilter. I`ve run test combats with player

characters (without the players) to see if an unusual encounter was way too

easy or way too hard. Often players respond differently, but the encounter

is improved by the advanced consideration. Its also worth noting that

players can make encounters much more difficult that I thought they were or

more easy, but that`s part of playing with people rather than stat blocks.

The advantage of the run through is that you know that stat part of the game

is in the target zone. Normal kinds of encounters have CR`s built in, and

its easier to figure out if three goblins with 2 rogue levels apiece is a

good match for the players than a unique creature with unusual abilities.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----

From: "tcharazazel" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2004 4:32 PM





> actually ken, if you look at his blood abilities, he is invulnerable...



Well, he`s "invulnerable" or his invulnerable ;-) but he`s not invulnerable

in the plain meaning of that word. That particular blood ability means

there is a secret way to permemently end the Spider`s life. That`s a far

cry from being without a vulnerability. Its invulnerable in the way

Achilles was invulnerable.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[fiftyone]

Tal-Qazar (The Spider)

Level 16 Awnsheghlien Fighter
Hit Dice: 13d10+3d8+64+16+10 (174 hp).
Initiative: +3 (+3 Dex).
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares), climb 20ft.
AC: 23 (-1 Size, +3 Dex, +11 natural).
Base Attack/Grapple: +16/+27
Attack: Claw +23 melee (1d6+7)
Full Attack: 2 Claws +23 melee (1d6+7) and Bite +20 melee (1d8+3 plus poison).
Face/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft. (claws), 5 ft. (bite)
Special Attacks: poisonous bite, pounce, spittle, web
Special Qualities: darkvision 60ft., incredible jump, quickness, regeneration 1, spell resistance 15, tremorsense 60ft.
Saves: Fort +13, Ref +11, Will +6.
Abilities: Str 24, Dex 16, Con 19, Int 12, Wis 8, Cha 13.
Skills: Climb +28, Handle Animal +4, Hide +10, Intimidate +11, Jump +36, Listen +1, Move Silently +6, Ride +6, Spot +13, Swim +10
Feats: Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Fleet of Foot, Hold the Line, Improved Toughness, Improved Natural Armor, Improved Overrun, Mobility, Mult-attack, Power Attack, Run, Spring Attack, Weapon Focus (claws)
Bloodline: True (Azrai) 95.
Blood Abilities: Animal Affinity – spiders (Great), Bloodform (Great), Invulnerability (Great), Long Life (Great), Major Regeneration and Regeneration (Great).

Organization: Solitary or with goblin bodyguard (12–36).
Challenge Rating: 20.
Treasure: See Below.
Alignment: Chaotic evil


Incredible Jump (ex): When making a jump action the Spider&#39;s horizontal jump DC is half the normal and for a vertical jump is only doubled (normally quadrupalled).

Quickness (su): While not overly dexterous, the Spider is supernaturally quick and can take an extra standard action or move action during its turn each round.

Poisonous bite: Initial damage Fort Save DC 22 or die. Secondary damage 1d6 con and 1d6 str.

Pounce (ex): If the spider charges, he can make a full attack.

Spittle (ex): Poison based defensive action that deals 1d6 damage (fortitude DC22 to avoid) and blinds opponents struck for 1d6 rounds. Affects up to 3 creatures in a 15 ft. radius or 60 ft. cone.

Web (ex): Once per round as a standard action the Spider can throw web as a ranged touch attack. This is similar to an attack with a net but has a max range of 50 feet with range increments of 10 feet, and is effective against targets of huge size or smaller. An entagled creature can escape with a successful Escape Artist check (DC 21) or burst it with a strength check (DC 25).

---

I&#39;m new and I was bored&#33; Well i&#39;m not really new, but I havn&#39;t visited here in a longtime and forgot my old account info ^_^ I had been helping on a 3E Birthright NPC Conversion with a few other people, but I lost contact with them

Anyways, It took me about 45 minutes to put this together. Read through the entire topic and took in mind peoples opinions. I think it turned out pretty well. ^_^

The 3d8 extra hit die is monstrous humanoid levels (I guess). I started him with the elite array str 15, dex 14, con 13, in 12, wis 8, chr 10 with hobgoblin as base creature so +2 dex and con. Large size increased str by +8 and con by +4 and dex -2. From levels I dropped one point in Str, 2 in Dex and 1 in Chr, but added a couple more to chr after reviewing the topic. ^_^

Carapace is +10 to +12 natural armor so that could be razed a little. He also had 15% Magic Res. in 2E so I gave him spell resistance 15 (previous builds of Rhuobhe and the Gorgon i&#39;ve done had them 18 and 22 respectively and in 2E they were 25% and 40%).

Also gave him monstrous spider racial bonuses w/ hunter subtype. 40 ft. move because he was 15 in 2E and the base 1st lvel warrior hobgoblin skills for good measure.

Oh and.. please don&#39;t hurt me&#33; I just like creating dnd creatures n&#39; stuff

[tcharazazel]

if you want to follow the 3.5 rules then his levels will prob be more like, level 14 fighter, level 2 scion of azri, and then some odd number of levels in giant spider actually... on second thought... check out Savage species if you have the book, pages 121-122 they have the template Insectile that can be added to a creature... heheh and adds +2 to level adjustment. Now true spiders arent insects however its rather close so not so dif to change. For those who dont have the book heres what it adds

Insectile creatures:

Size and Type: The creatures type changes to Aberration.

Speed: An insectile creature gains a climb speed equal to its land speed.

AC: Because of the insectile creature;s chitinous shell, the base creature&#39;s natureal armor bonus increases by +2.

Attacks: Despite having 6 arms, insectile creatures gain no additional attacks.

Special Qualities: An insectile creature gains darkvision 60&#39;, tremorsense 60&#39; and wide vision: Because of its multiple eyes and wide angle of vison, an insectile creature has a +4 racial bonus on Spot checks and cannont be flanked.

Abilities: +4 dex, +2 wis

Climate/Terrain: same as base creature, but never aquatic

CR: Base Creatures +1

Level Adj: +2

A final side note is that Insectile creatures preferred class is rogue. Some become druids or clerics, but most take advantage of their high Dex scores and their climbing abilities by advancing as rogues.

So... to fix that for a spider... we would prob just add in that... size adjust to large, Attacks would have 8 appendages tho cant atk with all (unless he gets multi atk heheh), pounce, and incredible jump, poison bite. Worth another +1-2 lvl really and well call it Arachnid to make it more accurate, so total of +3-4 level.

So that would make him effectively have... 14 fighter levels, 2 scion levels of azri (unless true bloodlines have 3), and 3-4 levels of Arachnid. So a total of 20-21 levels. To be honest... he prob would have gotten a few levels of rogue for that sneak attack and then spring away, heheh, tho we dont need to get into that.

The other thing is that the assumption is that hes totally a spider now... why does he have to be totally a spider? Why not something more like a drider, part spider part goblin (or hobgoblin)? Heheh, that would give him the option to use either his old favorite weapons from before the changes otherwise all those fighter bonus feats he got when he was just a normal goblin would have become totally useless, like weapon focus and specialization, and greater focus and specialization. And he could stil have the poison bite and spittle. heheh, so he would be a tough fight for anybody then really... with a base attack +15/10/5 and +2 higher for using his favored weapon along with any nice bonuses it may have... and even higher if you add in some rogue levels...

Now that would not be fun to face... oh no, def not fun to face alone... especially considering he would not be likely to be alone.

As its obvious weve been deciding that he&#39;s a combination of both the monster manual III (the 3.5 version) hunter spider and web spinner spider. The hunter gets +10 to jump checks and +8 to spot checks, and the web spinner gets +8 to hide and move silently checks when using their webs. and they both get +8 to climb checks and they can always choose to take 10 when making them and they can choose to use either their Str or Dex whichever is higher for the climb checks. So, heh it really it depends on how much we want to get into exactly what type of spider he either fully or partially (1/2 goblin 1/2 spider idea) changed into.

heh, gotta say its def fun makin the spider tho.

[Ariadne]

@fiftyone: cool work...

Edit: @tcharazazel: Fine, that we are of one opinion
Your suggestion of an insectile creature is pretty good...

[Osprey]

The Spider is actually pictured as a drider-type form, tho 1/2-goblin rather than 1/2-drow, in the original box set of BR. But this would be why he has Insectile features rather than being completely "spiderized", which would prob. mean all monster levels.

I&#39;d vouch for the ruling that the Spider&#39;s transformation, and subsequent(?) insanity would have converted some of his original fighting levels to monster levels as he loses his "humanity" (goblinanity?) to the awnshegh he is becoming. So that +2 ECL for the template would be subtracted from fighter levels rather than representing new levels of advancement.

Also, I&#39;d much rather go with Ranger than Fighter for Tal-Qazar, and then perhaps some Rogue levels stacked on if total ECL allows for it.

Then again, I&#39;d have no problem with an ECL 25-30 Spider B) .

Off the top of my head for ECL 25, maybe Ranger 10/ Rogue 6/ Abberation 4 [6] (Insectile)/ Scion 3 (True Bloodline of Azrai).

So he&#39;d be a 23 HD creature, ECL 25, and probably CR 24 or less.

[tcharazazel]

Yeah, the reason i was sticking with the levels in fighter was because i figured that as a general its prob what he was focused on then, instead of ranger. As Fighters are the more typical General, though ranger could also work.

[fiftyone]

Goblin, Hobgoblin or Bugbear?

He could also be Human or Elven. (Blood Enemies)

Driders climb at 1/2 their normal move speed and they fight with daggers. They have average jumping ability. Creatures like Yuan-Ti and Medusa are Monstrous Humanoid so I figured that went well.

If you interpret insanity as becoming more animilistic (in the Spider&#39;s case) you could apply Vermin Traits to him, making his intelligence nil, pump his hitdice up, give him multiattack and he&#39;d be similar to what I made, just w/o all the feats and large adjustments to the skills. I don&#39;t have Savage Species so that information is unavailable to me.

Applying a template to him doesn&#39;t seem right to me. He&#39;s been changed through his own action by nothing less than a divine source. IMO, his type could be Abberatiom or Monstrous Humanoid (Augmented Humanoid [?]) or simply Awnshegh (Augmented Humanoid) and with the latter, follow class/racial levels/hit dice.

Hrmm..

Tal-Qazar (The Spider)

Level Awnsheghlien (augmented Humanoid)
Hit Dice: 24d8+98 (206 hp)
Initiative: +4 (+4 Dex).
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares), climb 20ft.
AC: 23 (-1 Size, +4 Dex, +10 natural)
Attacks: 2 Claws +24 melee (1d6+7) Bite +21 melee (1d8+3 plus poison).
Face/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft. (claws), 5 ft. (bite)
Special Attacks: poisonous bite, pounce, spittle, web
Special Qualities: darkvision 60ft., frightful presence, incredible jump, quickness, regeneration, spell resistance 15, tremorsense 60ft.
Saves: Fort +18, Ref +12, Will +8.
Abilities: Str 24, Dex 20, Con 19, Int - or 2 to have non-racial feats and skills, Wis 10, Cha 13.
Skills: Climb +28, Hide +12, Intimidate +11, Jump +36, , Move Silently +8, Spot +14
Feats: Dodge, Fleet of Foot, Improved Overrun, Mobility, Mult-attack, Power Attack, Run, Spring Attack
Bloodline: True (Azrai) 95.
Blood Abilities: Animal Affinity – spiders (Great), Bloodform (Great), Invulnerability (Great), Long Life (Great), Major Regeneration and Regeneration (Great).

Organization: Solitary or with goblin bodyguard (12–36).
Challenge Rating: 20.
Treasure: See Below.
Alignment: Chaotic evil

Frightful Presence (ex): 30ft. radius, DC23 will save.Creatures fewer than 9 hit ice become Frightened with a failed save, shaken if successful. Creatures of 9 to 23 hit dice become shaken with a failed save and are unaffected if a successful save is made. Lasts 5d4 rounds. Creatures who make the save are immune to the Spider&#39;s frightful presence for the next 24 hours. This is a mind-affecting fear effect.

Incredible Jump (ex): When making a jump action the Spider&#39;s horizontal jump DC is half the normal and for a vertical jump is only doubled (normally quadrupalled).

Quickness (su): While not overly dexterous, the Spider is supernaturally quick and can take an extra standard action or move action during its turn each round.

Poisonous bite: Initial damage Fort Save DC 26 or die. Secondary damage 1d6 con and 1d6 str.

Pounce (ex): If the spider charges, he can make a full attack.

Spittle (ex): Poison based defensive action that deals 1d6 damage (fortitude DC26 to avoid) and blinds opponents struck for 1d6 rounds. Affects up to 3 creatures in a 15 ft. radius or 60 ft. cone.

Web (ex): Once per round as a standard action the Spider can throw web as a ranged touch attack. This is similar to an attack with a net but has a max range of 50 feet with range increments of 10 feet, and is effective against targets of huge size or smaller. An entagled creature can escape with a successful Escape Artist check (DC 16) or burst it with a strength check (DC 20).


notes..

Changed to a racial hit die all around. Fewer Feats, though I believe most of the skills can remain. Bumped his dex and wis a little, but Int is vermin or animal. Added Frightful Presence, just seemed right. I think BR could use an insanity point system like in Ravenloft, something to that effect ^_^

[fiftyone]

I don&#39;t really think he would have Ranger class levels. Just give him the track feat and that could be done, though I don&#39;t believe he would need it. He can probably see through the eyes of the tens of thousands of spiders that inhabit the Spiderfell. Why bother following a trail of footprints? ^_^

The combat styles, woodland stride, endurance and animal empathy isn&#39;t really needed IMO. If a creature that isn&#39;t gnoll, goblin or spider exists in the Fell its most likely regarded as livestock and since the Spider is never mentioned as actually leaving the Fell or wandering it (he has enough minions for menial tasks) being able to move through bramble and thick brush is not important. Endurance, I don&#39;t know and combat styles? The only picture I have of the Spider is the Blood Enemies one with the wicked claws etc. My card from the original set was destroyed long ago . I do remember him looking more civilized though. Well about as civilized as a half person half spider could look ^_^

Favored Enemy has the base in the Elves. He really seems to Despise them. If anything, one level of ranger for this IMO ^_^