The Spider's Stats, Assistance needed to help with

[irdeggman]

Strength should be higher than 16 or 17 since he/it is a Large creature and not a man sized one.

[Osprey]

Normally, victory against an opponant with superior mobility and a mobility
approach is had when you can pin them down and negate their mobility. The
bear has such an attack. If the druid in the form of a dire bear has the
Improved Grab ability, and the dire bear is larger than the Spider, this
might well be the downfall of the Spider.

The Spring Attack feat (which I would definitely give to the Spider) allows a character to move (I use Jump for that part), attack, and then move again (withdraw, normally), without suffering an attack of opportunity. The bear has to get within reach to grapple in the first place.

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----

From: "Osprey" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

Sent: Friday, April 16, 2004 9:36 PM





> The Spring Attack feat (which I would definitely give to the

> Spider) allows a character to move (I use Jump for that part),

> attack, and then move again (withdraw, normally), without

> suffering an attack of opportunity. The bear has to get within

> reach to grapple in the first place. :)



Tactics are always a game of rock-paper-scissors. I would prefer to start

with first principles and then ask the rules to model a specific effect, and

not mistake the rules for the principles. As an example of this, reverse

the situation. Make the Bear the ancient abomination and have the druid

wild shape into the bouncy spider. Even of bouncy spider is faster, jumps,

and has Spring Attack, he`s not (or shouldn`t be) invulnerable. He has a

set of abilities that can be countered by the right build of a sufficient

level. For example, Spring Attack allows you to move both before and after

your attack, but you are still limited to your total movement. So even if

bouncy spider can move 60ft and and dire bear can only move 40ft, bouncy

spider cannot make sequential attacks without leaving himself exposed to an

attack himself. Bears in the wild are known to be pretty fast runners, so

certainly our bear can charge, increasing his speed in that attack to 80 ft.

Bouncy spider may bounce vertically, but a 6000 lb dire bear can topple

trees.



The important thing about considering the bear as the abomination and the

druid as the attacking spider is that you spend the same time investing in

the reverse scenario. Perhaps the bear has an ability derived from Combat

Reflexes that allows him to attack even when someone is suppressing their

own opportunity attacks (by using Spring Attack, for instance). After all,

this is a sport, bear baiting, in which you attempt to poke or prod the bear

without allowing the bear to get in a blow. Presumably the people who

practice it have the RL equivilent of Spring Attack. But, you know what

they say: Sometimes you get the bear, sometimes the bear gets you.



Even the rogue`s uncannly dodge isn`t perfect. A rogue four level higher

can still flank him.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[Ariadne]

Originally posted by RaspK_FOG
Are you sure that a 12th-level druid is that much of a given in Birthright? In any case, I would by all means be happy to see a CR 18 or more Spider... If I have the time, I may well work a little with my copy of Savage Species and bring up such an acceptable piece of work. Any orders?

Well, there are about a hand full of druids higher then 11th level known alone in Rjurik, so why not? I’m only wondering, why no druid already tried in 2000 years

[Ariadne]

@Osprey: Don’t forget, she is a druid&#33; A druid might be more familiar with the spiderfell than the spider itself. There are several methods for the druid to recognise the spider bevore it does it (“commune with nature” for example). And naturally don’t forget: A druid can’t be tracked and gets several advantages like no hamper or damage in overgrown area (including forrests).

Further the druid can already wild shape 4 times per day, this means she can fly as a tiny bird (or an eagle, dire hawk or whatever) “directly” behind the spider (an eagle or dire hawk has a fly speed of 80 ft, that’s more than the spider even with Spring Attack) or even can disguise herself as a plant (a shambling mound for example). With the Natural Spell feat the druid can cast spells even in animal/ plant form and her Quick Change feat allows her to change shape AND attack in the same round (reducing the shaping time from standard to move action). I even did not mention the following: The druid can cast “Wall of Thorns” (5th level druid PHB spell) around the spider followed by charging into that wall and attacking (SHE doesn’t get damage, BUT the spider does). And don’t forget, if she KNOWS, that there is a SPIDER, she can cast “freedom of movement” as well

Kenneth is right, that he mentioned the “improved grab” ability of a dire bear. The bear can grapple as a free action without provoking attacks of opportunity (the spider can’t do anything apart from opposing the grapple that round). The opposed grapple check with Str 31 (+ 4 for large size + magical boosts) against sensational Str 19 (+0 for medium size) is, say, hard for the Spider to win. To be honest, if the Spider is “only” medium sized, it has simply lost&#33; The spider has trouble to get through the bear’s damage reduction at all and what does the bear? Dealing damage only because she holds her mouth shut. The 91 hp of the spider ar gone with an blink of an eye and the bear has about 5 to 10 points of damage taken by the spider that she can heal with her next wild shape...


Don’t get me wrong, I don’t want to show you: WOW, a druid is invincible, even without magical items and bloodline. (Against the Gorgon this druid still is able to survive 1 round or 2) NO&#33; I wanted to show, that the Spider’s callenge rating is too weak for an major awnsheglien with 2000 years on it’s back (and has managed to SURVIVE that long)&#33; As RaspK_FOG said: Let her have a CR of 18 or something like that. Give her good abilites, perfectly fitting feats, some nice “special attacks”, a REALLY deadly poison (no kids play like 1d6/1d6 temporary con), at least large size, a HIGHER CR and, and, and...
Then the Spider is as good as it’s reputation…


@Kenneth: I saw a movie on a German discovery channel about polar bears a few weeks ago and I must say: I was impressed…

[kgauck]

I think that many of the spells and attacks Ariadne mentioned would be

reduced in effectiveness. The Spider, as a regent, has a bloodline link to

its realm, and may have the ability (some DM`s will assume this ability,

other would like a power defined) to counter or interfere with a Commune

With Nature spell. To a certian degree, this spell is kind of a Commune

with Spider on his own turf spell. I would probably add a -10 or -15

penalty to the skill checks involved. [ed. It has dawned on me that not

everyone would use Knowledge (Nature) skill checks to resolve Commune With

Nature attempts, but here is a reason to do so.]



Likewise thorn patches, walls of thorns, and and plant growth will not be as

effective as the druid has experienced with other opponans, because the

Spider is a three dimentional opponant, meaning they won`t just manouvre on

the plane of the surface of the world, but will jump and climb around

obstacles. However....



Watching footage of bears in action in today`s episode of "Animal Face Off"

(it was wolf v cougar) neither wolves nor cougars dared attack a bear from

the front. The longest peice of footage involved a pack of four wolves

surrounding a juvenile bear. They were manouvering for attacks on sides and

rear of the bear where his bite-claw reactions were irrelevant. In

discussing the cougar, they analogized to the lion who has a claw speed of

17ft per sec and can transmit 2/3`s of its bodyweight into a claw blow.

That sounds like an ability to launch attacks of opportunity against anyone

who moves into the window of opportunity.



So... here`s where some walls of thorns and so forth come into their own.

These obstacles could be created to block the Spider from flanking the druid

and making any attacks outside the front facing of the bear, and containing

and limiting the Spider`s movements so that the bear can isolate and charge

or otherwise get at the Spider. The Spider would be forced to respond just

as most light, mobile forces respond to slow, heavy forces, by withdrawing

after a few attacks.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[RaspK_FOG]

It suddenly dawned on me that there is something entirely unrealistic and, well, blunt regarding flavour when we take a look at the Spider: do you know what spider venom does to its victim?

Unlike common knowledge, most spiders and almost all of those that spin webs do not have lethal poisons, and this is not a matter of size... Spider venom generally is a paralysing agent; the kill is made by the spider later on, when it injects its gastric fluids into the victim (I do not know what is the case when we take "hunting" spiders into account, like the wolf spider), which dissolves from the inside. Since paralysis is either a result of nulling one&#39;s muscle power or mobility (Strength or Dexterity 0 respectively), I think that making the Spider&#39;s venom deal both initial nd secondary damage of 1d6 temporary Strength and 1d6 Dexterity damage (failing both saves results in 2d6 Str and 2d6 Dex damage) is more fitting and up to it...

[Ariadne]

Originally posted by RaspK_FOG@Apr 17 2004, 11:18 PM
It suddenly dawned on me that there is something entirely unrealistic and, well, blunt regarding flavour when we take a look at the Spider: do you know what spider venom does to its victim?

And? It&#39;s completely irrelevant what the poison does with its victims. Immunity to poison is immunity to poison...

[geeman]

At 01:41 AM 4/18/2004 +0200, Ariadne wrote:



> <&#33;Begin-RaspK_FOG+Apr 17 2004, 11:18 PM--&#62;</div><table border=`0`

> align=`center` width=`95%` cellpadding=`3`

> cellspacing=`1`><tr><td>QUOTE (RaspK_FOG @ Apr 17 2004, 11:18

> PM)</td></tr><tr><td id=`QUOTE`>&#60;&#33;--QuoteEBegin--&#62; It suddenly dawned on

> me that there is something entirely unrealistic and, well, blunt

> regarding flavour when we take a look at the Spider: do you know what

> spider venom does to its victim?

> [/QUOTE]

>And? It`s completely irrelevant what the poison does with its victims.



If a poison does strength or dexterity damage the victim is "helpless" when

that stat reaches 0. They fall prone (strength) or stand motionless

(dexterity) and cannot move, effectively "paralyzing" them. If

constitution reaches 0 the victim dies. Therefore, if one wants to make

the Spider`s poison do something that actual spider poison does (paralyze

rather than kill) then one of those ability scores is better than constitution.



Having said that, it`s probably important to note that THE Spider isn`t A

spider. He`s an iconic transformation of a goblin into a theriomorph based

on the influence of a corrupt and degenerative divine power. Oozing deadly

poison from one`s fangs might suit such a form. Also, there are a few

spiders that are deadly for all that their poison is supposed to paralyze,

so one could still go with constitution and justify it that

way. Personally, I think the paralytic effect is just as apt as a deadly

one (and has a few ancillary effects--like allowing for the possibility of

captives in need of rescue, which is a nice adventure hook) so I`d go with

strength damage.



Gary

[Ariadne]

Originally posted by kgauck
I think that many of the spells and attacks Ariadne mentioned would be reduced in effectiveness. The Spider, as a regent, has a bloodline link to its realm, and may have the ability (some DM`s will assume this ability, other would like a power defined) to counter or interfere with a Commune With Nature spell. To a certian degree, this spell is kind of a Commune with Spider on his own turf spell. I would probably add a -10 or –15 penalty to the skill checks involved. [ed. It has dawned on me that not everyone would use Knowledge (Nature) skill checks to resolve Commune With Nature attempts, but here is a reason to do so.]

WOW, I never used a skill check for any spell (apart from spellcraft for counterspells), might be a nice idea. You should think of the relative high level for the druid. She normally should have all avalable 15 ranks in knowledge (nature), and even, if not this smart there are several bonusses a druid gets because of her “profession” and should give her something like +18 or so. If the druid is Reynir blooded, she might add an extra bonus and cancel the regent penalty she might get at all. Maybe something like a “regent spell resistance” is not wrong with something like an opposed caster level check (maybe even modified by bloodline strength). As such a commune with nature says, how much “unnatural” beings are within the area and where and if the druid is a regent herself, the spell should function automatically (as normally too).

Likewise thorn patches, walls of thorns, and and plant growth will not be as effective as the druid has experienced with other opponans, because the Spider is a three dimentional opponant, meaning they won`t just manouvre on the plane of the surface of the world, but will jump and climb around obstacles. However....

Well, it’s equal, if the spider is a three dimension opponent, if the druid casts the spell, when the spider is not climbing. As for the 5th level spell, the spider gets no save and suffers automatically damage. To walk 5 ft per round, it has to succed a strength check DC 25 (again a nice try with str 19) or she can’t do a step (and still gets damage). I’m of your oppinion: Entange or plant growth is completely useless because the spider has a saving throw. Wall of Thorns should freeze her to the spot, if the does not have spell resistance. IMO a nice addition to a higher CR, as well as DR (maybe even a better than …/magic, how about 10/cold iron, that’s nearly impossible to overcome or even combined: 10/ magic AND silver for example) and some kind of fast healing (or even regeneration). Further I would use a bite attack and a special spittle attack in addition (can’t be wrong to add several things).

Generally RaspK_FOG’s idea isn’t bad at all: 1d6 Str + 1d6 dex, the only thing is, I don’t like that one d6. I don’t have a problem to use a d10 for both (or at least d8). In D&D terms a spider naturally can have both types: Some spider “races” deal str, some con damage (but more often con damage). Normally THE Spider IS deadly (she had a deadly poison in 2nd Ed too) and it still should be. I think we need not to overdo it, I saw Epic Spiders deal 2d12 temporary con (primary + secondary damage) with a fort save of 35 or so, but it should be something like 1d10, 2d8, 3d6 or something like that with a fort save of at least 25. Maybe the spider can have “ability focus (poison)” or “virulent poison” + deadly poison (all savage species) or all as feats (just an idea).