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  1. #11
    Birthright Developer Raesene Andu's Avatar
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    I`ve always found it strange that the Spider isn`t a higher level character after 1,500 years.... Personally, I think he should have those 13 fighter levels and another 10-15 levels of an awnshegh class, but c`est la vie.
    I've always imagined that the Spider was a 13th level fighter at Deismaar, 2000 years ago. He was the leader of at least one tribe of goblin, perhaps a major warlord, even leader of most of the goblins in Anuire (which would explain his true bloodline, only gifted to the chosen champions of the gods).

    His insanity could be the reason why he has not developed his skills (as a fighter or whatever), but I see no reason why he cannot have developed his Awnshegh abilities over the years.


    How`d you came up with +10 for natural armor? Matching it up with the AC
    of the original character description (2e AC: -2 = 3e AC: 22?)
    I believe so. I can't remember exactly, but that sounds like the way I would have done it.


    Does the DC/damage of poison equate to a large spider? Same for

    Web? What`s the range of spittle?
    Currently poison is the same as a large spider, yes. I hadn't decided the web or spittle abilties (one of the reasons why I'm throwing this open to everyone)...
    Let me claim your Birthright!!

  2. #12
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 02:36 PM 3/5/2004 +0100, Raesene Andu wrote:



    >>I`ve always found it strange that the Spider isn`t a higher level

    >>character after 1,500 years.... Personally, I think he should have those

    >>13 fighter levels and another 10-15 levels of an awnshegh class, but

    >>c`est la vie.

    >

    >I`ve always imagined that the Spider was a 13th level fighter at Deismaar,

    >2000 years ago. He was the leader of at least one tribe of goblin, perhaps

    >a major warlord, even leader of most of the goblins in Anuire (which would

    >explain his true bloodline, only gifted to the chosen champions of the gods).



    I think that`s very reasonable. He may have added a level or two as a

    fighter in the years immediately after Deismaar before his insanity started

    to grab hold, but after that most of his levelling up would be as a

    monster/awnshegh. In fact, most of the "original" awnsheghlien could

    probably be so described except, perhaps, Rhoubhe who does not seem to have

    transformed all that much comparatively.



    >Currently poison is the same as a large spider, yes. I hadn`t decided the

    >web or spittle abilties (one of the reasons why I`m throwing this open to

    >everyone)...



    If his web spinning ability is equal to a large spider`s then it`d have a

    range of 50` with a range increment of 10` and would be be able to entangle

    targets up to size huge. Escape artist check DC 13 or break (strength

    check) DC 20 will get someone out of the web, and a 5`x5` section of it has

    DR 5/-- and The 12 hit points.



    Since the Spider can jump 30` and shoot webs 50` making his spittle attack

    have a very short range would seem kind of silly. 20` would seem a

    minimum, and 30` seems like a better number.



    Gary

  3. #13
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    When it comes to the ability scores for the Spider I`d go with the standard

    array, modify it for his character levels, apply modifiers for his race

    (goblin) and those ability score increases/decreases for changing into a

    large creature. He may have a few additional ability score modifiers here

    and there to reflect additional changes to his physiology as an awnshegh,

    but I`m of the opinion that the transformative effects of awnsheghlien and

    ersheghlien should be handled by a character class, and in the case of the

    Spider I think most of his transformation is in the area of his body, his

    special abilities (webs, jump, poison) rather than ability scores, so his

    stats shouldn`t go much beyond those increases.



    Gary

  4. #14
    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
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    I think that`s very reasonable. He may have added a level or two as a
    fighter in the years immediately after Deismaar before his insanity started
    to grab hold, but after that most of his levelling up would be as a
    monster/awnshegh.
    I'd say that, using the revised 3.5 mechanics for scions, the next 2 (3?) levels after Desimaar should be as a Scion of Azrai, as he has a True bloodline. What needs to be hammered out after that is just how many monster (awnshegh) levels the Spider has acquired in the last 2000 years. Gods know he hasn't been entirely passive in all that time - he may be insane, but he's obviously not stupid or incapable of learning and adapting, otherwise the Anuirean Empire would have crushed him and the Spiderfell long, long ago.

    I thought I read a reference somewhere (perhaps in the original 2e description?)that the Spider as a goblin was a great goblin general at Deismaar, and I'd say probably the general of all the goblins there. That being said, 13 levels as a fighter is easily believable when we're comparing him to most of the goblin commanders of Cerilia at that time!

  5. #15
    Senior Member RaspK_FOG's Avatar
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    I'd go with a 14th- to 16th-ECL character for the Spider, but I am not sure...

    This estimation is based on a 10th- to 12th-level goblin fighter, +1 or +2 awnshegh levels or whatever, +2 or +3 scion levels, as follows:
    • 10-12 Ftr + 1 Ans + 3 Sci
    • 10-12 Ftr + 2 Ans + 2 Sci

    I tend to think the former is closer to the Spider, though... Oh well.

  6. #16
    Site Moderator Ariadne's Avatar
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    Here is a normal example of a normal PHB character who has the chance to eliminate the Spider in, well say, 2 no 3 rounds...

    I made her completely without magical items (or artifacts like a dagger +1 )

    Druid level 12 (normal PHB human druid)

    Wild shaped into a "normal" dire bear: Str 31, dex 13, con 19 (without boosts, see below) + druids mental abilities (I assume, wis 18 is minimum, rest average)

    bite +17 [+boost] (2d8+8 [+magical boost]) and 2 claws each +19 [+boost] (2d4+13 [+magical boosts])

    with following feats:
    • Power attack,
    • cleave,
    • natural spell,
    • multiattack (MM) and
    • quick change (if dex 15 [savage species]) or
    • sancified natural attack (if good [book of exalted deeds])

    and following spells on her:
    • Greater magic fang
    • Barkskin
    • Stoneskin
    • several animal ability boosts (like bear's endurance)
    • Sunmantle ([if good] book of exalted deeds)

    naturally any normal druid of 12th level is immune to poison.

    Now tell me: How much rounds the spider will stand against her (in single combat) with her suggested stats?

    I don't know, if you know what I mean, but I think, to be a real chalange, add about +10 to all physical abilities (if not levels) and let her have a poison of at least the "poison" spell (1d10/1d10 temporary con)...
    May Khirdai always bless your sword and his lightning struck your enemies!

  7. #17
    Senior Member RaspK_FOG's Avatar
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    Are you sure that a 12th-level druid is that much of a given in Birthright? In any case, I would by all means be happy to see a CR 18 or more Spider... If I have the time, I may well work a little with my copy of Savage Species and bring up such an acceptable piece of work. Any orders?

  8. #18
    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
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    Now tell me: How much rounds the spider will stand against her (in single combat) with her suggested stats?
    Here is where good DMing comes into play. Take on the Spider in my game, in the Spiderfell, and she'd die...I promise. With a good land speed, a very excellent Jump skill, some good stealth and alertness skills, and the Spring Attack feat, well...I imagine the cunning and nimble spider would happily ensnare the big bear with webs, terrain, and generally lead them on a merry chase through a very unfriendly forest...meanwhile, siccing minions on the druid and spring attacking at its leisure (then running away when the bear tries to respond). If there's one thing even the crazy 'ol Spider will have, it's the patience to deal with his prey in his own good time. Toy with them, even...give his life a few brief 'moments' of interest every few years.

    Honestly, stats are but a small piece of the balance equation, a fact easily forgotten by those of us who read alot of rules but play only occasionally (at least with good combat DM's). Mobility-type abilities, esp. in a dense native terrain, is a tremendous advantage, one that would allow me for example to raise the CR of the Spider (by several levels) if he were actually defeated on his home ground. Situation plays an immense role in all but the most lopsided fights (and then only because D&D mechanics love that high-level characters can wade through masses of extras with nary a scratch! ).

    Osprey

  9. #19
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    Normally, victory against an opponant with superior mobility and a mobility

    approach is had when you can pin them down and negate their mobility. The

    bear has such an attack. If the druid in the form of a dire bear has the

    Improved Grab ability, and the dire bear is larger than the Spider, this

    might well be the downfall of the Spider.



    Tomorrow on the Discovery Channel they will have Polar Bear vs Walrus on

    "Animal Face-Off", on Sunday airing twice. Also Grizzly Bear vs Siberian

    Tiger will air on the 24th. For those interested in using ideas about how

    bears are thought to fight in real life, say interested druid players ;-)

    its probably worth a look see.



    The schedule for this show is at

    http://dsc.discovery.com/schedule/se...04&channel=DSC



    Kenneth Gauck

    kgauck@mchsi.com

  10. #20
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    Originally posted by Osprey @ Apr 16 2004+ 07:11 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE ( Osprey @ Apr 16 2004 &#064; 07:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Honestly, stats are but a small piece of the balance equation, a fact easily forgotten by those of us who read alot of rules but play only occasionally (at least with good combat DM&#39;s). [/b]


    Good point Osprey. I have seen a few goblins and some tactics (and maybe some dirty fighting) give an advanced party a hard time. It all depends on how the DM plays the encounter.

    AC 22 is fair if you actually do the math. Same goes about the Spider King being 13th level. I would keep to the book and give the King 81 hp. I would probably remove the poison special attack from bite for a spitting poison attack. Giving the option of two claw attacks and a bite or two claw attacks and spitting poison (probably at the ranger or rogue plucking arrows at him). Make the poison a Contact DC 20 type (3d6 Con/3d6 Con) and you might think twice before stepping into the ring. :blink:

    I would keep the Strength between 16 and 17 to reflect the game stats and because it has the torso of a humanoid. I would also give the Spider King SR 14 also to reflect the game stats.

    <!--QuoteBegin-geeman Posted on Mar 5 2004
    @ 04:30 PM
    If his web spinning ability is equal to a large spider`s then it`d have a
    range of 50` with a range increment of 10` and would be be able to entangle
    targets up to size huge.
    [/quote]

    The web would actually entangle targets from Medium-size and smaller.

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