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  1. #1
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    I think an administrate check for a create/rule holding domain standard action concernig a source holding is quite curious. I cannot imagine a wizard contesting a source holding with documents, codes, propaganda…
    A nature knowledge check is better. It should be a check (create holding) or an opposed check (rule holding) concernig knowledge of the mebhaighl.
    What do you think?

  2. #2
    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
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    Yeah, i brought up that concern a while back, too, but never heard how much of that would be reworked, as the revised (v3.5) BRCS Domain Rules remain a complete mystery.

    IMC, I use Knowledge (Arcana) as the key skill for wizards and sorcerers in all Source domain actions, while I use K/Nature for druids (whom I let rule sources, but no ley lines).

    On the other hand, as mebhaighal is so strongly nature-oriented, I would have no problem with K/Nature being the key skill for Creating, Contesting, and Ruling Sources...perhaps K/Arcana as key skill for Ley Line creation? That would make a great deal of sense, wouldn't it?

    We can hope the BRCS team is interestesd in sensible improvements. This one certainly seems like an obvious tweak that needs to be made.

    Osprey

  3. #3
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Osprey,
    I'm not ignoring you. Just waiting to get all (or most of the opinions) mentioned to see what people think.

    You are right that if administrate is seen as a means of shuffling paper that it makes less sense to apply it to Source holdings. But if one considers it the means of applying the right assets to the task in the case to make more efficient use of assets hence reducing the cost of the assets involved it makes more sense.

    From a game mechanic standpoint giving a class (in this case wizards and sorcerers) a clear advantage in saving funds (normally the Admininstrate skill) by alowing them to combine it under a skill Knowledge (Nature) which presently is used for gaining RP from Sources. Hence a two-for-one benefit.

    Having said that - I'm planning on revising the skill-based RP collection system. While in principle it seemed a very good idea, especially with the advant of the easier multiclassing rules in 3/3.5, mechanically it is proving to be a nightmare. I'll most likely go with each regent choosing a primary class (for which he gains full RP) and then each of his other classes he would gain 1/2 the normal amount, with the restriction that he can't gain RP for 2 classes from the same holding. For example a fighter/paladin. Normally a fighter gains full from a law holding while a paladin gains full from a law and temple holding. The regent claims fighter as his primary class. He would then gain full Law holding RP and 1/2 temple RP. (Ususally 2nd ed RP collection guidelines). I don't want to dwell too much on this quite yet - I'd rather knock off a chapter at a time. I'm still debating whther to go with Chap 3 magic next or Ruling a domain - both are important. I think I'll do magic since it is the other half of creating a class.

    Bottom line it is possible to change the use of saving money for sources to Knowedge (Nature) - even though in general Knowledge skills are the academic undertanding and not the practical application (e.g., Knowledge (nature) vice Survival), but using a broader definition/interpretation of the use of the Administrate skill would probably solve the problem without creating more complexity.

    I hope that helps.
    Duane Eggert

  4. #4
    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
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    I'm still debating whether to go with Chap 3 magic next or Ruling a domain - both are important. I think I'll do magic since it is the other half of creating a class.
    I'd recommend going with Domain actions sooner rather than later, as there is likely to be a long debate over the final form...and the skills and feats in Ch1 are closely related, which means CH 1 is also waiting on Domain rules to become integrated...

    What else I'd do is then open up Magic for discussion, too, as it may also invite a lot of discussion/ debate. That way, a lot of the wrangling can get done without multiple revisions. Pre-empt the time-consuming parts, and hopefully we can see the revised BRCS completed sooner.

  5. #5
    Heheh, that sounds like a good idea there Osprey. Less work = happier people
    "Who was the first that forged the deadly blade? Of rugged steel his savage soul was made." --Tibullus

    "Qui desiderat pacem praeparet bellum." --Vegetius

    "Men grow tired of sleep, love, singing and dancing sooner than war." --Homer

  6. #6
    Senior Member Osprey's Avatar
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    Osprey,
    I'm not ignoring you. Just waiting to get all (or most of the opinions) mentioned to see what people think.
    That's cool...though it is really good to hear some kind or rationale behind the BRCS domain systems. I think the key domain skills and regency collection systems are really key aspects of the revision to hammer out.

    You are right that if administrate is seen as a means of shuffling paper that it makes less sense to apply it to Source holdings. But if one considers it the means of applying the right assets to the task in the case to make more efficient use of assets hence reducing the cost of the assets involved it makes more sense.

    From a game mechanic standpoint giving a class (in this case wizards and sorcerers) a clear advantage in saving funds (normally the Admininstrate skill) by alowing them to combine it under a skill Knowledge (Nature) which presently is used for gaining RP from Sources. Hence a two-for-one benefit.
    I think Administrate has 2 key components: Logistics (math, organizational systems, accurate predictions of costs, etc.) and Delegation (putting the right person on the job). More like a combination of Accounting and Management skills. Which is fine in a medieval-renaissance setting.

    Now should this be a class skill for Wizards and Sorcerers? I really don't think so. If it's a class skill from a racial background skill, fine - it's not like Administrate isn't worth it's weight in gold, merely for the benefit of saving a GB on realm spells, ley line construction, and possibly realm actions.

    On the other hand, I think Administrate just isn't at the heart of creating, ruling, or contesting sorces. While it might prove useful (such as in the case of a Lt./apprentice contesting a 2nd source as part of a Realm Action), there should be no contest when we ask: What is the single best skill that represents a source regent's ability to manipulate mebhaighal? That should be the question which defines the key skill involving sources. I think K/Nature or K/Arcana are by far the 2 best candidates for that.

  7. #7
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    Osprey -- perhaps we need a new subset of Knowledge. Knowledge (Mebhaigl). I've always envisioned Arcana as being more of normal magic -- magic items, etc -- and Spellcraft beign research and identification of spells themselves.
    "It may be better to be a live jackal than a dead lion, but it is better still to be a live lion -- and usually easier."

    - R. A. Heinlien, from The Collected works of Lazarus Long

  8. #8
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    In basic D&D the scry skill is virtually useless. In Birthright it seems to have doubled in usefullness. I think its use would function as a understanding(not nessisarilly consoius) or power over the mebhigal. It might not nessisarilly be used to gain RP but warcraft doesnt run a peacful kingdom either.

  9. #9
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Ksaturn@Jul 28 2004, 08:30 AM
    In basic D&D the scry skill is virtually useless. In Birthright it seems to have doubled in usefullness. I think its use would function as a understanding(not nessisarilly consoius) or power over the mebhigal. It might not nessisarilly be used to gain RP but warcraft doesnt run a peacful kingdom either.
    The scry skill has been deleted from 3.5 and will likewise be removed from the BRCS. It has been as we have been revising it.
    Duane Eggert

  10. #10
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    Say, why isn't Osprey a Birthright Developer, anyways?
    <span style='color:darkgray'>&quot;I like to be passionate and sincere, but I also like to have fun and act like a dork... Geeks unite.&quot;
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