Underground expansion

[wiliam bokey]

I have a question here that I need answering, so if any of you have what you consider a reasonable solution let me know:

A character in the campaine I am running is a dwarvish priest that has just resently joined are little party. The problem is, the rest of the group are human regents who use the "knights of the round table" approach to rule. Obviously they do not completely agree with all the dwarf beliefs, because most of them are priests of another faith. This leads to the following problems:

1) The dwarf wants to "build" a underground citadel and rebuild a dwarvan nation under the ground. However, because he is not currently a regent, this is not possible because he does not have any regency. The current characters are not going to help, simply because they are all humancentric. However, they are not going to try to prevent this building in their provence because they feel it does not directly pose a threat.

2) If the dwarf does somehow suceed in his county building attempt, how do I handle the law, temple and guild holdings, as well as the overall province level. The person playing the dwarf believes (obviously) that they would not interfer with the above ground goings on, but I think that they would have to interact in some way. He views underground as being a separate entity, much like the shadow world. I believe this is just a easy way to avoid conflict with the people ruling above the ground.(Thus no contest actions or such, just a build)

Let me know what you all think, or if you need any additional info just let me know. If you would like a players opinion on the situation just wait, because he subscribes to the list as well....

Thanks,

Curt.

[Mark A Vandermeulen]

On Thu, 20 Nov 1997, wiliam bokey wrote:

> 1) The dwarf wants to "build" a underground citadel and rebuild a dwarvan
> nation under the ground. However, because he is not currently a regent,
> this is not possible because he does not have any regency. The current
> characters are not going to help, simply because they are all
> humancentric. However, they are not going to try to prevent this
> building in their provence because they feel it does not directly pose a
> threat.

One way to handle this is like the following. It doesn't require RP in
order to do the Create Action, so you can do that as soon as the dwarf
builds up 2,000 GP (=1 GB). However, to Rule does require at least 1 RP.
Some one, I forget who, has suggested that once someone has successfully
completed a Build action, they then automatically gain a number of RP
equal to their CHA rating, or their BL strength, whichever is lower. This
is a one-time award, so if they squander their free RP then they'll have
to rely on convincing someone to loan them the RP for the next attempt.

> 2) If the dwarf does somehow suceed in his county building attempt, how do
> I handle the law, temple and guild holdings, as well as the overall
> province level. The person playing the dwarf believes (obviously) that
> they would not interfer with the above ground goings on, but I think
> that they would have to interact in some way. He views underground as
> being a separate entity, much like the shadow world. I believe this is
> just a easy way to avoid conflict with the people ruling above the
> ground.(Thus no contest actions or such, just a build)

This was a topic that we debated back and forth some time ago. One option
that was offered was to have the underground "province" levels each act
as half a regular province level for the purpose of determining province
ratings. For example, if a dwarf were to build a level 2 "underground
province" in a province that was rated 2/5, when he was finished, the
province would be rated 2(2)/4. Thus dwarves DO have an effect on the
magic potential of the land, but less than that of humans, since they do
most of their building underground.

Hope this helps.
Mark VanderMeulen
vander+@pitt.edu

[Daniel McSorley]

From: Mark A Vandermeulen
>One way to handle this is like the following. It doesn't require RP in
>order to do the Create Action, so you can do that as soon as the dwarf
>builds up 2,000 GP (=1 GB). However, to Rule does require at least 1 RP.
Am I reading the same rules as everybody else? On page 59, Rulebook, it
says: "Ruling a holding or province from level 0 to level 1 costs 1 GB; no
RP's must be spent." I keep seeing this assumption, and you're right, this
would be a problem if you had to spend regency, but you DON'T. That's how
new countries/ holding networks get created: it doesn't cost any RP, which
you won't have till you get the holdings, but it only costs money. Thus,
there isn't really a problem.

Daniel McSorley
mcsorley.1@osu.edu

[Mark A Vandermeulen]

On Thu, 20 Nov 1997, Daniel McSorley wrote:

> Am I reading the same rules as everybody else? On page 59, Rulebook, it
> says: "Ruling a holding or province from level 0 to level 1 costs 1 GB; no
> RP's must be spent." I keep seeing this assumption, and you're right, this
> would be a problem if you had to spend regency, but you DON'T. That's how
> new countries/ holding networks get created: it doesn't cost any RP, which
> you won't have till you get the holdings, but it only costs money. Thus,
> there isn't really a problem.

Whoops. My bad. Shows the benefit of looking something up before you post.

Mark VanderMeulen
vander+@pitt.edu

[JLR881@aol.co]

Along the same vein as the question posted about the dwarf regent building
underground, since the whole province is underground, shouldn't it be
considered fortified by a castle equal to the province's rating?

[Daniel McSorley]

From: JLR881@aol.com

>Along the same vein as the question posted about the dwarf regent building
>underground, since the whole province is underground, shouldn't it be
>considered fortified by a castle equal to the province's rating?
That has been done before, for the Baruk-Azhik sourcebook and I think in
HotGB for the dwarves on the eastern shore, but it wouldn't neccessarily be
justified for a new dwarven dwelling. These others are old and established,
and have doubtless been involved in wars, which would cause them to improve
their defenses, but a new dwarven province wouldn't be as deep underground,
or as populated with trained warriors, to be considered a citadel.

Daniel McSorley
mcsorley.1@osu.edu

[Mark A Vandermeulen]

On Sat, 22 Nov 1997 JLR881@aol.com wrote:

> Along the same vein as the question posted about the dwarf regent building
> underground, since the whole province is underground, shouldn't it be
> considered fortified by a castle equal to the province's rating?

This would certainly make sense, but I would make the dwarven regent pay
much for for his create province and rule province actions if that were
the case, since they are automatically fortified. Makes sense, too: it
should take longer and require more labor to carve out a dwelling from
solid rock than to build a log cabin.

Mark VanderMeulen
vander+@pitt.edu

[JLR881@aol.co]

Assuming anyone plays a Dwarf Regent, I was planning to make him pay twice
the number of GBs to perform build/rule actions, but I think it one of the
books I have it says that Dwarves have a dificult time increasing their
numbers, so, to even it out, I was thinking that I would require two consecuti
ve rule actions for a Dwarf Regent to increase his holding levels and
province ratings.

[Tim Nutting]

Amazing how things that just might impact a campaign pop up here when
the harried DM needs them the most. I too have a player trying to
convince me that his dwarf would in no way inversely impact his
surroundings by "secretly" building a province underground...

Some rules I came up with (mostly for simplicity)

* A Province is a Province, above as below.
This is based on the likes of Baruk-Azhik as well as inferences from
other books. The level is just that, the level, with no need to
determine special characteristics such as how many dwarves or elves are
there, etc.
Provence max level should be inverted though - Mountains are the best
for underground dwellings (more stone to burrow through) and so max at
province (10). Plains however, should be the worst (less suitable to
the formation of caverns and the like) and max out at province (5).

* Source is affected just the same.
Look at Baruk-Azhik in the Rulebook. The max Source potential is
diminished there as in any other non-elf realm. Dwarves are non-magical
and their building will disrupt mebhail just like any other. The
rulebook describes mebhail's flow through woods and glens //and//
through mountains and caverns. Re-creating nature hurts it, reshaping
(as sidhelien do) does not.

Tim